Shalloway on Lean, Agile and Kanban


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Alan is an industry thought leader in Lean, Kanban, product portfolio management, Scrum and agile design. He helps companies transition to Lean and Agile methods enterprise-wide as well teaches courses in these areas.

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Shalloway on Lean, Agile and Kanban

  1. 1. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsShalloway on Lean, Kanban and Agile Guest was Alan Shalloway Related Podcasts: Alan Shalloway discusses the state of Agile!, part 1 of 3 Can Agile work at the Enterprise Level with Alan Shalloway? Shalloway on Teamwork in Kanban, part 3 of 3 Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  2. 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsAlan is an industry thought leader in Lean, Kanban, product portfoliomanagement, Scrum and agile design. He helps companies transition toLean and Agile methods enterprise-wide as well teaches courses in theseareas. He is the founder and CEO of Net Objectives and also can be found ontwitter @alshalloway.Alan is the primary author ofEssential Skills for the Agile Developer: A Guide to BetterProgramming and DesignLean-Agile Software Development: Achieving Enterprise AgilityDesign Patterns Explained: A New Perspective on Object-Oriented DesignAnd a favorite of mine: Lean-Agile Pocket Guide for Scrum TeamsNet Objectives provides both a consistent message and a set ofpractices that enable the teams goals to be fulfilled. They enhance theability of organizations to transition into a more effective way of developingsoftware. Services are delivered through a combination of training to createthe proper foundation, consulting to provide an outside, expert,experienced view, and coaching to empower the team. They believe thatwhen it comes to developing software, there is no one-size-fits all. Theproblem domain, corporate culture, abilities of the developers, attitude ofmanagement, and other factors, greatly impact and determine what willwork best in a particular environment.Transcription:Joe Dager: Welcome, everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host of TheBusiness901 podcast. With me today is Alan Shalloway, whos the Founderand CEO of Net Objectives. With over 40 years of experience, Alan is theindustry of thought leader in Lean, Kanban, Product Portfolio Management,Scrum and Agile Design. Alan is the primary author of "Design PatternsExplained." Is that a new book?Alan Shaloway: Well, actually "Design Patterns Explained" came out, firstedition I think was 2001 then updated in 2004. But we borrowed some ofthe concepts for our latest book called "Essential Skills for the Agile Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  3. 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsDeveloper." This book actually comes out of a lot of the work we do is ofcourse, teaching patterns and also the teaching Agile. Its kind of funnywhen sometimes people, even in Agile... Some developers look like deer inthe headlights. Like, "Oh, my goodness, what am I going to do now if Imnot planning ahead?" They worry about all sorts of things about maybe lackof design or at least not designing as much as they would.What we found from our patterns and emergent design manufacturing andTDD courses is that there are a few techniques and understandings that ifyou take advantage of... That is not hard to do at all to making much moreadept in the Agile space. In fact, in the pattern scores, which are notspecifically here for an Agile, well, we talked a lot about how you use thatinto Agile.There are three things in there that are very easy for people to take out inthe real world. They differ in particular or are like encapsulatingconstruction, just general asking how you test something before you use,but how would you test something before you build it, that gives you a lot ofinsights. And the third one is programming by invention and these are verysimple techniques.We thought about it, we said, are there others? Are there things that youcould do that a developer like maybe in a half an hour can learn one trick tomake them better? We came up with a few little, over 14 or so, somethinglike that and thats what this book is about.Each one is a simple 30-minute or so read to understand how to do it,something they probably do now but dont quite totally understand thepower of it or could take it a little further and the book was really designedas a quick lesson learned over... You can read one and try to practice andread another one and try it and practice so each ones modular.I think it can help people new to Agile in their design quite nicely and itsgood even for experienced people as well. Its not really a newbies book butif youre wondering how do I do that now that Im doing, how do I deal withmy technical aspect now that Im doing Agile. Its really a good answer forthem and Im hoping its well-received. It just literally came out the lastweek. But our reviewers thought it was very good. I personally think its agreat book.I know the techniques that are in there will make a big difference for peopleso Im really hoping people read it. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  4. 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: It doesnt look like your typical airplane book. This is a pretty in-depthbook, isnt it?Alan: Its funny, even though a lot of these topics didnt relate to eachother, you can take one issue, like the example of how do I actually thinkabout testability in programming... It turns out theres a relationshipbetween testability and by testability... I mean, how easy it is to actuallytest your code? Its in there, theres a relationship between testability andthe quality of the code. In other words, code thats poor quality is typicallyhard to test. Code thats of high quality is typically easier to test. In fact, Iremember telling myself... Im sometimes a very slow learner. I remembertelling myself many times, how I was going to test this when I designed it.After I wrote it and all that and now Im testing it. Years ago, I would oftencome to this point. "Man, this code is tough to test." I wish I thought abouthow I was going to test it when I was writing it, and a quick learner mighthave said that once or twice, it might put me 20, 30 times.So I said, "Oh, maybe I ought to start thinking about how Im going to testthis before I write the code." When that really hit me and I started saying,"Wow, when I just consider how Im going to test it, it changes my code."Now that little conversation alone makes a big difference. So we talked alittle bit about that, like one of the chapters on defining a test. Im nottalking even TBB here. Im not talking about a Simslice and then writing it inthe Simslice and then writing it. Im talking about just asking the question,"How will I know Ive done that?"Now its interesting because people have done this at times. A pattern Iveseen is that sometimes people do something really, really well, really, reallysmart, really, really great, and then they dont do it again for a while. Itsbecause it worked at that time but they dont step back and reflect on it andsee how it could work in other places.So what this book is about, even though it kind of does go into these topicsin-depth a little bit, its not really this big tone or anything. It really takesadvantage of what people have done successfully on their own and it puts itin the context where they can see why it works. It sharpens the saw so theycan either; it lets them know what we use. Heres a tool that you use, whereyou use it and it is a lot easier that way.Its giving you something that you can actually read. I wouldnt read thewhole book in one sitting but you can read like a chapter in 30 minutes andthen go say, "Hey, thats a technique I can use and lets go try it out and Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  5. 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsthen you try it out and youll see youll do better." We intentionally kept it soevery chapter you could pick up and go do it and be successful at it rightfrom the beginning.I think youll see that those small investments it takes to do the suggestionswere making, actually it doesnt take weeks or days even. Its like you startgetting feedback right away to add some power.I think thats where its really useful, is one thing that people tend to dowhen theyre in a time crunch and like who isnt today, that you fall back toyour old habits. Our feeling was, instead of giving you this whole book onone thing, if we gave you a little bit on something you can immediatelyapply and then that started getting you better quality and saving you sometime and effort, then you can kind of bootstrap yourself into a morein-depth, better way of doing development.This is like you pay a little, you get a little, you pay a little, you get a littlebit of that and you can actually, I think make a huge difference in the qualityof coding and not just like if its Greenfield, not like if it was justmaintenance, just a different though process that people are doing to someextent but not necessarily being reflective about it.I want to be really clear when I say this, and I mean not everybody elsedoes this. I, of course, know, I get something and I use it all the time. I wishthat were true. I got some really embarrassing stories but Im not going totell you here because I know we dont have enough time.But, I mean, Im talking some major embarrassment about things I did onceand it was really good, Im proud of doing it once but Im embarrassed by...You did that growing thing 10 years ago and you didnt do it since? Why not?And literally, things like that, really cool stuff. Its because if we dontunderstand why something works and dont have clarity about the contextwork, then really, good people do great stuff all the time but sometimes theydont repeat it.So this is a collection of things that weve done that are relativelystraightforward, the intent was, its got to be something somebody alreadyalmost knows how to do or is doing, something they can learn in 30 minutesto an hour tops and gets an immediate return. I think when people read thebook theyll say, "Oh, yeah, I knew that. Oh, yeah, I knew that," and thewhole idea is to gel it so they can actually then start doing it all the time notjust every now and then. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  6. 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: Well, it sounds like, then, each chapter is a PDCA cycle, and at the endof it you standardize your work.Alan: Yeah, I think thats exactly what it is and it was designed this way.The book "Design Patterns Explained" was about creating a whole newthought process. So there, you needed to lay the groundwork, you neededto do some problems, you needed to try something. That is like a book, youtake a few days to read and a few days to try and then the whole thing. Butthere are lots of really simple things that I like to call trim tabs. A trim tab isa device on a plane or a ship that with a little leverage makes a bigdifference. To me, a trim tab in development is something where you dosome little piece of effort and it makes a big difference.People do this all the time, like one trim tab that people learned years andyears ago is you dont use constants, like these magic numbers. Like 10 isthe maximum number, so we put 10 all over the place. Well, now peopleknow thats really dead. But if you do, like take the 30 seconds to make thecons of 10, then you dont have a big problem of when your size changes.So thats an example of some little things.The things were talking about are obviously much bigger than that buttheyre still trim tabs, because theres something that with just a fewminutes of thought, you can save yourself hours of trying and you have a lotgreat clarity.Thats kind of what this book... It was the highlight of this book, was likeusing that parental, what little thing we could teach, that people couldactually get some serious value out of them. Thats really how we pick thesechapters. These are the key points that are serious trim tabs in softwaredevelopment that people know but I dont think they... People know but noteverybody knows.Everybody should know, its not hard to do. I think it will be a value even forpeople who are experts in doing it already. I think the value would be theycould teach it better to others. I think even the experts arent doing all thesethings even though theyve probably done it once or twice or something.Joe: Everybody says youre Agile anymore. Is that really true?Alan: Well, I was just talking to somebody who says their team saystheyre Agile because they could program but they dont do anything elseAgile. Agile has been so miss-marketed. If youre doing a daily standup, I Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  7. 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsheard youre doing Scrum. Thats not Scrum. Agility is really... Its sofragmented designs; I mean theyre different mindsets now. When yourecomparing Waterfall versus Agile, it was like, OK, well were not going to dothe big phase day thing, were going to do all of our analysis in our design,were going to do it in little chunks and do them all in a swarm. Even there,there were different styles but mostly, Scrum was like real popular in XP fora little while. I think the problem is people really even though they knowtheres no silver bullet, people kind of wanted to tell people what to do. Ithink one of the reasons Scrum got so popular is because you say, heres aset of prescribed practices and if you follow you will get started then youlllearn how to them then youll improve them and you make it your own.But at the start when youre really nervous, at the start when you reallydiscover because you dont know whether its going to work, youre followingsome experts way of starting and it gives you a certain level of comfort. Ithink thats why weve seen... But it also is a problem that if anybody doesthis, theyre going to plateau because at some point those prescribedpractices arent going to be the best things for you.Then you are seeing this as a Kanban community as well. I see Kanban isstarting to become somewhat prescriptive to some people. Well, we alwaysdo this so you do that and that kind of... Some dogma is coming in there.So what Agile means in my mind is neither of that. Agile is really not aboutfollowing any sort of prescription, but in your mind saying what I want to dois, I think there are really three things that youre trying to do in Agile. Oneis a driver, youre delivering value to the consumer quickly for the business.So its business and relations.How do I get value out to the customer that the business is picked on? Thatrequires the team, self-organizing, to figure out how to get that done. If youdont have a team and sometimes its difficult, if you get a lot of special, itsjust something and its up to management to improve the structure withinwhich the people can work.So its kind of these three levels of business driving, management clearingthe pact, you could say, and the developers actually creating the value ofthe development team. Its not just coders or testers but it includes theanalysts, it includes operations, includes support people, includes salespeople, includes anybody whos touching the software, how do they get thatout there so it can be consumed. I think that holistic view is listening from agood happy Agile community right now. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  8. 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWhile Im doing Agile, yeah the development team is doing Agile. Well, thedevelopment team is doing Agile and nobody else and your company isntand there are a lot of problems with that and you see that a lot.Joe: Now you always talk about Lean, Agile, how does Lean and Agile play?Is one the umbrella over the other or are they equal partners in your mind?Alan: Well, OK. You caught me, Joe. I think part of this is marketing. Iactually think Lean is the big mantra. I think Lean is about respectingpeople, having a systems approach, working at how it became a business,improve the structure, folks for delivery and improving the teamorganization. So I would say yeah, Lean is actually the umbrella for it all andwe put Lean Agile into it, because Agile has some other things that I thinkare actually implied in Lean but arent necessarily as explicit in Lean as theyare in Agile, which is this cross-functional team notion. Steve Denning talksabout, in his Radical Management book with how will you endorse, aboutcross-functional teams being able to create or delight customers.Steve Denning management is about creating teams that can delightcustomers. So Radical Management is really saying its radical becauseyoure saying, well, were going to have teams self-organized. Were goingto direct them from a management point of view. But to manage bydirecting, I mean were going to play in the right direction but then how theyget there is up to them.I think this is the thing thats often missing in the Agile community. You cancreate, I mean theres no question, Scrum is a great process, it really is andthe timing works out for us. Scrum is a great framework for creating across-functional team, or excuse me, if you have a cross-functional team,Scrum is a great framework for getting that team to work together well.Ive actually never denied that. Ive always said it. That objective probablyhas trained us much or more than anybody but maybe one or two othercompanies out there and were still very active in the Scum training world.But what we suggest is Scrum is fabulous if you have a cross-functionalteam to use it to self-organizing and to deliver value to the customer. Butwhats missing is how you really manage multiple teams across each other,what that means is how do you do product portfolio management, how doyou decide really where the value is across all the teams.The way Scrum is set up is if you have a value of effort to return where aperson getting lots of value in the first few releases and then it stars failing Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  9. 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsup. If all youre doing, the worst thing to the customer, that customer isgoing to keep saying, "Give me more, give me more, give me more,"because to him, that tailing value, even though youre not getting as much areturn every time is very valuable. its valuable like him. To anothercustomer, there might be something of much greater value that can actuallybe detected by business drivers.You need the business driver to know where to point the guns, so to speak,and then you need the team, the self-organizing, cross-functional teams todo the job well, and thats where radical management play.You have these different pieces of, how do I create great teams to delightcustomers, how do I create a business to make sure the teams are workingon the right thing, how do I get management so the teams can coordinateand work together well. In my mind, so Im just good at one of those andnot good at the others and my company is really about transforming. Wereall working all sized organizations, we work for companies really small, on upto the thousands but we know how to actually work with companies in thehundreds of thousands. That ends up being where we spend a lot of ourtime.Thats where you need something bigger than just the Agile team-basedapproach, and thats why again we call Lean Agile to kind of present the ideaof this overreaching bigger view.Ive heard some people say, "Agile is what you do in teams and Lean is whatyou do at the enterprise," and thats wrong. Youre talking about a wholesystemic approach and when you work with systems, you cannot decomposethem.In other words, even though Im talking about business and managementand team, you dont really have different parts of systems. If youdecompose the system, its a teaser, those teasers are not the system, itslike when they are put together. Theyd be like say taking an airplane, letstake a 747, break it down into pieces and then see how each of theindividual pieces fly. Well, none of them fly on their own, but you put themtogether and it works.You cant just say, "Well, this does this and this piece does that and thatpiece does that."Its the way they interact with each other is what makes it work. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  10. 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: I have to ask you because youre a big proponent of Kanban and thelast couple years you have been getting into it deeper. I never see a lotwritten or said about teams within Kanban. But you just said that thats animportant part of it?Alan: Well, this is actually some place where Steve Denning has been veryimpactful on me, because see, the thing is Kanban is very much gearedtoward managing your working progress and managing their flow. This iswhat I think where Im saying that sometimes we get into follow particularpractices and not thinking so much. So Kanban is phenomenal aboutimproving flow, improving inter-team dependencies or things like that. Ithink we take our eye off the ball, and by that when I say "we," I mean theKanban community actually I think is missing a little bit here that theyretaking their eye off the ball, what youre really trying to do is create greatteams to deliver value to the customer and I think Kanban is wonderful forthat.Id say most organizations that Ive seen and Ive seen is a very key pointhere because again, if youve got an organization thats got very functionalmid management, very functional high-level management, has greatworking teams and they all know how to work together, its going to begreat. But thats not the kind of organization I want across, maybe becausewe do more than Scrum so they come to us so Im not sure we have ascientific view.When I go to the Agile conferences, like Agile Alliance conferences, I see apretty decent cross-section of people there and almost all of them arehaving problems doing something across the enterprise. So the fact thatKanban can work when you dont have cross-functional teams, it canactually help you function well and manage a working progress when youhave disfunctionality at management and business levels because of thevisibility traits.Because Kanban works there, you see a lot of people starting out withKanban. But the fact is that it will work when you dont have cross-functionalteams or do not want to create cross-functional teams. I think most peoplewill do Kanban are still using the teams but they end up not talking about it,then I actually think its worth talking about, because I think, if you cancreate... If you have a bunch of specialists and they cant work together orfor whatever reason, the product portfolio managers are putting too manythings on you and you cant create cross-functional teams, Kanban is a great Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  11. 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsway to transition from where you are to where you have cross-functionalteams and then you still use Kanban.You still manage your working progress, you manage your flow, and youcreate visibility. Its no less Kanban just because you could alternativelymaybe use another process there. But I think we have sometimes lost sightof the fact that we want to use Kanban not just in managing your work butin helping people get team structures that are better. I think thats reallywhere kind of the future is going to be, is how do I, not just support peopleand to respect people but how do I really create the right team structure forthem.Weve actually been doing this. Its funny I started out saying embarrassingthings about not doing things explicitly. We talked for years. In fact, mymost popular talks recently have been how do you actually get a structureso that different teams can work together better? I think a lot of it is Im justconsciously taking it to the next level. Its not just how can teams interact,but how the teams themselves form and work together internally as well asexternally, how can Kanban do both of those?Kanban is just fabulous. Im a big proponent. I think its a very powerfulmethod of transforming not just a team but a group and even anorganization. But the fact that it will work anywhere because its a visibilityin some of the change management systems doesnt mean you shouldnt beimproving where you are just because you can make... You can makeimprovements where you are with the same structure but you can makeeven bigger improvements if you use it to change the structure.Joe: So you really believe that you can scale Kanban?Alan: Oh, yes. This is actually a revelation I have. I was on the phone... Idont know, I think it was one of these Twitter exchanges which is funnybecause Twitter, things are short; sometimes you really dont get the wholepoint across. So weve been going back and forth. I cant remember who Iwas tweeting with. It was interesting after about five or six tweets, Irealized, were talking about two different things. Hes scaling up to 100. Idont even consider scaling at a hundred. I mean, we started people, westarted organizations of about 100 or 125 is about the most that you startwith. Thats not scaling, thats a beginning point sometimes.Sometimes you need to actually make that all at once and really not somuch Kanban but Kanban can as well. They have been trying with Lean, we Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  12. 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsjust got in and we just kicked off the team at no time at all because we gavethem a consistent view.So when were talking about scaling, first of all, what do you mean is goingfrom what size to what size? But the other point is, we dont typically thinkof scaling in the way most people think of scaling. Most people think ofscaling as, well start out with a pilot and then well expand it and well bringit and branch it out through the whole organization. If youre actually doingjust what I said, I think it is dangerous. Now Im not saying you dont haveto do a pilot, we do pilots lots of times. Sometimes we do start with ahundred, more often we start with just a few teams.You might say who needs to build this business value? If that is eightpeople, great, it might be 25, and then wed start at that level. We starttypically as a pilot, the smallest group that we can get away with that canactually have business value and thats very often a lot more than eight.Even when we do that, the first thing we looked at is the whole problem atscale. So whats the organizations challenge? Is it lack of business thriving?Is it management? Is it team technical knowledge? Is it team profit? Arethey overworked somewhere?So Kanban is a very good way to see the flow and the bottlenecks,impediments, whatever you want to call them, to getting stuff done. Andthen, out of that big picture, you can now go and look and say, "We got 300people here and we dont want to start with 300 but we can see theres a bigpicture. If we can somehow get these guys over here, these two teams of 10each, if we can get them up... First of all, we can see that they can livewithin the organization as it is and second of all, we can see that doing sowill prove our point and will move us further toward getting another fewteams."So scaling from the bottom up without a vision is not what we do. Its notdangerous. But scaling from the bottom up after youve created a high levelcontext is very important. Again, why you might call it Lean Agile; Lean togive you the overall view but then you might implement an Agileimplementation at a few things but within the context of the bigger picture.These companies that... Theyll say, "Oh, lets be Agile and lets do a pilotproject" and they just pick one, were seeing this repeated pattern. This isanother, sometimes on flow point of view. If you ever go, we noticed how wesaw this pattern about those companies would take a pilot, theyd have Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  13. 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsgreat success. What happened through some part of the organization, theytend to get boundaries as they got past like the mid-management started orsomething.Then it would just kind of crash. Crash is the wrong word, but it will juststall, and it would plateau. Then sometimes the company would almost whatId call "reject" it. Its like all the other parts of the organization now kind oftalks about how bad it is and literally pushes it out. With teams that wereused, never quite understood it, we just attributed it to jealousy or peopledidnt like it. They were being threatened. And the more we mentioned this,people were talking, "Yeah, we got Agile in. Were great and nobody elseliked it. Its outside of our group and they basically had a change in managerand they had to stop it."Eventually, what we noticed was that there was something going on wheresometimes the Agile teams, the teams , the pilots that went Agile weredoing great. They were doing better but they were only a piece of thepicture, and that the way they were doing great was literally harming theother parts of the organizations and they werent at all sensitive to it.So all of a sudden, it got really clear. No wonder these people dont like it.From their perspective, its not gotten better at all. From the Agile teamsperspective, its gotten better. But if youre not looking at the businessdelivered, the business value delivered, without looking at the businessvalue delivered, and then youre really missing the whole thing.So this is the Leans optimized the whole and Agile might say, well we saythe same thing but I like what George Bernard Shaw said one time ago, Ihope I dont bastardize this too much. He said, "You can ascertain whatpeople believe not by their creed but rather by the assumptions theyregularly make."Mr. Shaw is a very brilliant guy. He was a very brilliant guy. And what hessaying is, if we look out in the world, we can see what people believe, not bywhat they say they believe but what are the assumptions they make. Andthe assumptions you see in the Agile community is, I can start a team andthey better file a project and if it works, its great.The worst thing is actually, no, thats not the problem of the entire businessflow, the entire value stream and its not good at all. The focus on the team,the assumption that we can work on the team, I think is showing the beliefsystem that the team is the bottleneck and the team is the real important Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  14. 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsteeth and the team is whats important. And you see this over focus onteam, which is something Ive been ranting about three years.Yeah, the team is important but the team first of all, is usually not theproblem. I mean, usually thats just where the problem shows up. If youhave a gasoline fire, you couldnt help, its all that gasoline. Maybe theproblem is where is that gas coming from? Where do the developer problemscome from? Very often, they do things that arent very good but its not theirfault. Its their being overburdened because theres unclear businessdirection or they dont have the support they need.So just focusing on the team here, not only puts I think the developers inthe wrong situation, it makes it so that even when they solve something,you havent really solved the organizations true challenge. So what happensis, youre solving not the true challenge but a secondary challenge and aftera while youre going to plateau because you could only get so far until youget to the real problem thats causing these other challenges. We see thatoverlooked way too often.In fact, in my case when they talk about it, and that some people havedescribed this because I have sparkly personality but when I describe it,people seem to think, "Oh, dont talk about that. Were getting the teamsout. We got to focus on the team." And Im saying, "No, its that whole focusthats the problem. Now you do a great job."You can do a great job of treating an engine but if the transition is yourproblem, I dont care how good you get that engine. We will see someimprovement but you wont get the real problem and I think thats what wedo. I think in the Agile stage, we end up spending a lot of time makingengines run better when the transition is the problem.Joe: Is that somewhat what Scrum tried to solve with the ScrumMaster andthe project coordinator, is to make that team more functional and meld it into the rest of the organization or not?Alan: Sort of, it does try to do this but I dont think its improbable not todo it. So the ScrumMaster is all of helping the teams self-organize and gettheir job done and then taking the challenges the team has, theimpediments and saying, "OK, lets go take these impediments to theorganization and lets fix them." Yeah, thats the intent. The problem is, Idont think that works. I dont think it works very well any way. If you havedysfunctional management, talking to them about having to remove the Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  15. 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsimpediments of the team is not going to get them excited. What you need todo is come from again a holistic view of how youre adding value. So theintent is one thing but the fact again, Ive seen a lot of companies that haveimpediments. Scrum has shown me impediments, but they dont want torecognize them as impediments and two, even if they did, they dont tellthem what to do with the impediments.So theres notion that you can see some things and then stop quickly inScrum which is a great concept, I mean it happened. Sometimes its actuallyis not true and that you sometimes forget just the way it is and then othertimes, oh yeah, I dont know how to solve this, this are our impediments,but if it doesnt give you any guidance. Now, of course, Scrum is aframework so thats as close as youre going to get. So its supposed to be aframework where you put things in.I guess what Im suggesting is a framework while its important is not moreimportant than the things you put in, the notions of how do you treatpeople, how do people change and how does work change if you dont attendto delays? The content, the knowledge you have to use, that scale and largesystems is very significant and taking an attitude that, well well have thisframework and well get it started and well find our impediments I just thinksets us up to where you have a lot of heroism needed. People have to solvethese impediments that show up. Now what you need is a combination ofboth the framework and what you put in.To be honest, I think the framework is... Inner development is fine in manycases but its not the best way to go in all cases. So I dont want any dogmathat says, "This is an approach you always take." And time boxing, althoughits a great concept, its brilliant. In some ways, its a weak manifestation offlow but the reasons where time boxing is sometimes better than a pure flowmodel but you want to know both.I think my complain isnt with Scrum, my complaint is if you try to now saythis is something that will work everywhere and you should always start witha framework and build it out. I think thats the problem and thats where Ithink things go wrong because people try and tend to oversimplify.I guess one last thing on this is, ScrumMasters role is kind of interesting.Because what the ScrumMaster is actually doing, I guess it depends on...There are different thoughts, there are different camps about theScrumMaster too. So some people say that ScrumMaster is a peer facilitator Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  16. 16. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsand doesnt lead or direct or anything like that. Actually, I disagree withthat.The other camp, I believe ScrumMasters are coaches. Theyre doing servantleaderships, things that need to happen. And Servant Leadership by the waymeans you get coffee as often as you kick them in the butt. In other words,you get things for them, you make things work for them, and if youre notdoing what you need to do, you dont want them to get away with it. Thatswhat real leadership is, servant leadership. Servant leadership means Imleading but Im doing it by providing for the team.Now, in my mind, thats what a manager should be doing. The truth is,nobody knew I think in Agile, how to do that. I think the managers actuallylead. Lean has an awful lot in this area of how do you get managers to lead.But Lean didnt come along, the software scene anyway until after the Agilecommunity came in. So I think what happened is the ScrumMaster, we meetup this whole new role thats really an old role you and older roles as welltoo. I cant get a manager to lead but maybe I can get a team member tolead.So well just separate the team from the rest of the organization, have theScrumMaster leaders and hell deal with getting impediments removed andhe will be talking to the rest, then the product that comes along saying,were going to remove them also from the business chain and the team willjust talk to the product owner.Now, Im not saying this is how it should happen actually, again you gotsome different fractions in the Scrum community. Some people actuallyhave the team being separated with these two roles and some people say,"No, no, no. These roles are supposed to integrate in it," and I agree, I thinkthey should be integrated. But then the question is, whats even strong now?That becomes pretty open-ended.So theres no overreaching mindset that people can use to solve thesequestions as they show up, because as they take the initial practices thatyoure given, you get into this kind of non-thinking role that works at firstbut it doesnt extend beyond the team and people can do it because actuallyits less threatening to them because it feels comfortable. We get verynervous when who we are and what we do is being challenged and Scrumgives you a way to... Say, "Why do we start this because thats what weregood at?" Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  17. 17. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsIn a sense, youre making a big jump like you were told to do it and that wasa good thing. You go doing it. With Kanban, you have to kind of think all thetime, thats the whole idea. The Kanban works up there. Youre going tohave iterations if you like time boxing. Theres nothing saying Kanbans cantwork with iterations. Kanban is basically Kanban put on top of the Scrum.What it does is it enables you to think and kind of puts pressure on you tothink all the time. Im seeing now some people are pushing back there in theKanban community.They never say we dont want to think, but the reality is you start thingsfrom dogma coming. You start things... Oh, this is what we do in the Kanbanworld, and thats a trigger right there. Well, that means theyre not thinkingif theyre saying this is what we do.Joe: I hear that Scrum has a pretty defined structure for team andteamwork in how its supposed to work and there are couple differentvariations of it. But is there such a structure for Kanban or is it justcompletely self-organizing?Alan: Well, since Kanban doesnt really talk about the team, Kanban talksabout the floor work and theres a lot of power in talking about the floorwork. So what Im adding... Creating cross-functional teams, thatssomething Im actually suggesting is should you use Kanban for. Kanbanitself doesnt talk about that. Kanban totally focuses on how this workflowfrom the idea until it gets deployed and thats what you think. Kanbandoesnt go to how flow from the beginning to the end and Kanban attends tothe system that people are working in. Dont put too much work in at thefront because it will clog things up, causes traffic jams, and walking distanceof that nature.What Im suggesting is that there is a pattern of success with crossfunctionality. Im not saying you should say Kanban is about creating crossfunctional team but Im suggesting that as you look for how you wouldsucceed, one of the things you need to ask yourself for, ask yourself aboutis, how should these people be working together.Yes, manage it with flow and work in partners and things like that. But oneof the things you should ask yourself is, would these teams be workingtogether better as cross functional teams. And if the answer is yes and Ithink the answer is almost always yes, then as youre looking at managingthe work you should consider how can I get as much swarming andcollaboration as possible. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  18. 18. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsNow, Kanban will actually get you there without even thinking about it to alarge extent because Kanban always have, youll get queues around theinbox. Youll get the laser and handouts. So when you conform, you will seethat things go better. So in a sense, the natural pressure of Kanban is goingto be towards cross functional teams.Im just suggesting you should make it explicit, we should talk about itbecause I think youll get there faster when you have some consciousnessabout why youre doing what youre doing and that where youre going. Ithink knowing the goal and always maybe questioning it to be sure yourenot going on some dogmatic journey is important. Again, going back to theessential skill book where I was saying conscious awareness of what youredoing and why youre doing it has a big impact.Im suggesting, when I talk about creating cross functional teams withKanban... All were doing is creating conscious awareness to things peoplehave seen themselves that we did a really dynamic teamwork and greatmanaging their flow, managing their work in progress. Its phenomenal.Now, the fact that you can do a lot better when you dont have such a team,by attending to flow and web and using Kanban to start working into thisfunctional organization, well, thats great. But lets not get complacent. Letsrecognize that there might even be a better structure.So one of Kanbans weaknesses, per se, is its ability to kind of work in avariety of places. So if you dont have cross functional teams, well, thatdoesnt mean you want to just keep working there just because it will workwithout cross functional team.I think there has been some loss of this in the industry.Joe: I always thought you wrote a great book that the pocket guide forScrum Teams, is that applicable to the Kanban world?Alan: I think it is to some extent but I think it needs to be updated. Theway that its applicable to the Kanban teams is it talks about challengingmindsets and it really gets you thinking about why youre dealing in otheralternatives. But it never gets short of the time boxing. And its totallydownloaded in the Scrum framework. So in my mind, if you actually do whatwe say in the Lean, Agile part you got for Scrum teams, in my mind whatthats doing is not Scrum. The Kanban mindset, the Lean mindset like theScrum, its not as good as if it were a Kanban. In fact, I expect in another... Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  19. 19. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWe got some key things that were working on right now in my company butI expect that when we get a couple of those things on in a couple of months,our plans are to take that pocket guide and update it with what wevelearned. Its a couple years old but then what we want to do is create aKanban pocket guide.Talks about the practices but more important, well, at least equallyimportant is to why the practices and what you do and also patterns ofsuccess. Because thats something actually I do think its really maybe themost fun thing about my job is, we get to see many, many, manyorganizations both in the Scrum camp and the Kanban camp, successful ornot successful, because its like just us.I mean, I will say, most of the people we work experience really goodsuccess but we also deal with a lot of people in conferences we go to and Illbe the first one to admit, not every one of our customers has hit the ball outof the park. So weve seen challenges and patterns of challenges, not justwith our own clients but with clients when we go to conferences but becausewe have like about a dozen consultants and we do a lot of time talking toeach other and cross training with each other.All of us have seen lots of different cases and that power of having acollection of people like that enable us to be part of success patterns tofailure and it really shows us not so much whats wrong with like Kanbanalong with Scrum or along with Lean, but rather it shows us the humanity,how do people approach problems, what are the necessary? I mean, thatsthe common theme here.The common theme here is that there are people at the end of every processthat are doing this. And when you see patterns of success and failure, youstart realizing that people will do transitions in particular ways and that partof your method, part of you framework, part of your process, part of yourmindset or whatever, actually acknowledge that theyre kind of a...Respecting people to do their job is not enough. You need to respect theirhumanity.How did they... Whats the cytology? How do they like working with otherpeople? Thats what I mean by the humanity, the tribal nature of people andwhats this vitality? How do they adapt? If you dont pay attention to that, ifyou dont understand the culture of an organization before you make yourrecommendation, then youre really honestly nice and we see this all the Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  20. 20. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemstime and its really one of the biggest ironies in the whole Agile communitybecause Agile talks about respecting people.All Agile does, they feel in most camps, say they respect peoplesknowledge. These people are going to figure out how to do it. Well, I respectthat. Thats great. Lean respects that. Kanban respects that. I mean, yourekind of insane not to respect that. Youre in a different lose situation if youcant trust your people to know the best about their jobs. Thats just like thefoundation. But then, when you see, respecting the way people react tochange. People dont like big changes or respecting the fact that peopletypically are closer to the people they work with every day and not as closeto the people over at the other groups.How youre managing your large scale transition, how are you attending tothose two things and to be honest, Lean and Kanban are the only ones that Isee in the Agile space doing. XP talks just about teams and Scrum kind ofpretends you can go from team one up and that the dynamics, they talkabout, "Oh, well, its fractal, Alan." Thats where the behavior higher up isthe same as the behavior at the bottom and thats the rotten metaphor.It is fractal, fractal is structural. So like an example, you can look atsub-atomic particles and you can look at how much space is there betweensub-atomic particles and then go up to protons and neutrons. Im talkingabout even sub-atomic. You can go to protons and neutrons, electrons.You can go to atoms and molecules. You can go to molecules and cells, thengo to cells in the body and then go to people and on the planet. Then gofrom one planet or the stars to the galaxy. Then the galaxy, the universeand you see this fractal nature in the relationship there. But you know what?Thats fractal structure. The behaviors are completely different at thosedifferent scales.Im suggesting that, when people work at the fractal nature of organizationsand they say, "I get this little team of players and Ive got a group team,and now I got a division and now I have a company," and they say, "Well,these are just all teams," Im saying, "Yeah, theyre all teams but they allbehave differently. The dynamics are different." And missing that point iswhat I think the Agile community, particularly the Scrum community hasbeen missing.Now I say that with caution because people will say Im bashing Scrum whenthey say things like this. So no! Im not bashing Scrum. Im saying Scrum is Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  21. 21. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsa great framework and a great place for it to work. But taking it out of worksdesign to work, you know its not the place. I go to lecture at 3:30. I lovemy car. But you know what? It is horrible to learn to steer out of your life. Ijust dont understand it.If somebody would try to tell me that if I put a couple of pontoons on mycar, a propeller and this was a great... Its not a great boat. Im saying itscrazy. But thats not in my lecture, form of my lecture.We got to work to see where the things are applicable and what I dont likeis when people say something is applicable when its not. I did get on myhigh horse on that one, I admit. But I want to be really clear, its not themethod, its why are you miss-applying the method and why are you puttingin a place thats not the best place for it. Thats more of a mindset issue,naturally I guess what I rant about.Joe: Does each part of the enterprise have to be Agile then to make itsuccessful? Can it be different at each different layer?Alan: Well, you want to business agility, so I would say each part of theenterprise needs to have agility. The purpose of agility is deliveringincremental business value. And to do that, every level of the enterpriseneeds to have some agility to it. This is the one of the challenges then, isthen how to unify different levels of an organization at a different concerns,different skills, different motivation, different layers are being measured.How do you unify them? The way you unify them, in my mind is you givethem something that they all have a vested interest in. This is why the valuestream is so important because its from right up at the beginning when youdecide what you want to do, where are you going to get the best value? Notto where its sold, but to where its consumed and supported and used.Everybody can get on the same page, so in a sense, you are creating now anew team. The team is called the organization. So in that sense, maybeteamwork is the right way. You dont normally think of whats beyond as ateam whether you think of it as having teams.At this high level of calling it a team is I think a misnomer but what youhave created about it that your kind of team like is that everybody on theteam has the same purpose. That you see this was great company. Then Imnot, I can say what Im about to say because this does not come fromanything inside. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  22. 22. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsBut you look at a company like Amazon or a company like Zappa, which isactually a subsidiary, but the thing that makes these companies rich, Zappais a great company before Amazon bought them. What makes thesecompanies great, if you actually look at it, is that everybody in that companyhas a view of getting the same result. And in Amazons case, its customerservice.You see this when you talk to the people, and this is actually where I gotthis, is talking to some people in years of work. You could see that yeah,they have this job; yeah, they have this role. Yeah, they have this team thatthey were working on. They have this accountability of the software butwhat they were really looking at, when were serving our customers, or theycome into our site to buy stuff and get what they wanted in a way that wasa positive experience.Everybody there that I talk to has this. When you have that, now you havean exciting team. That is only created when there is a common vision. Ifwhat youre doing is actually separating the components and making thecomponents work better but still separating and then you cant create reallyworld class vision and teams.Thats what I guess Im really up to. I mean its not just about how do Imake a company be three times more productive doing the wrong stuff? Imean, thats useful, actually. I mean, theyre really, it sounds silly, but itactually is useful. I mean now they have a better shot at discovering whatthe right stuff is if they can get stuff done in less time.Whats really exciting is how do you make your customers happy? How doyou get them coming up with a great product? I think that just takes morethan individual teams to do it. I think seeing all, if we put together teamsfirst and then move up, that might work. They have at times but its a veryrare event. Whats interesting is that you look at the biggest Scrumsuccesses, they didnt happen that way. The sales forces are good exampleof Scrums great success story but it was also mandated by the CEO.You have a lot of pressure from the top creating the context of what wasgoing to happen and then the team is self-organized with a lot of help. Thenthey self-organize, in that sense a lot of coaching, things of that nature andyou have a great success there. So Scrum there in a bigger context is thingsthat make sense to me, well by itself, its missing a lot. Its this other team,how do you create that high level and the mid management to work? Howyou bind them altogether is essential. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  23. 23. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWithout that, you can see a lot of people succeed for a while and then it justkind of plateaus. I think thats where Agile is starting to get a backlash nowbecause theyre making teams Agile but the business isnt any better.Joe: I can understand what youre saying here because its just about, likeit has to grow organically somewhat that under that common clarity ofmission for a lack of a better word there.Alan: It does have to grow organically but its got a good firm, it doesntjust throw seed out into the farms and say, "OK, grow." I dont know whatyoure doing. I dont have this work. It creates a structure within which youcan go, theres a top vision. Even though every plant now is going to do andsend its roots down, around the rocks, not trying to go through the rocks.Each plant is going figure out how to do its best, if you dont have thatcontext for all, then the plants arent going to be very well. I think thatsreally, really the key. I think somehow weve missed this in the Agilecommunity and I think part of it is... I think the Agile manifesto is amazing.I really, really respect the people who put that there. Every one of them isjust brilliant. A manifesto is temporal by nature. Its saying, heres where weare and we need to make it break.Well, you know what? Were not where we were 10 years ago, and you canstill hear people saying, "Well, I dont define by the manifesto." Im like,"Thats insane, Im sorry. Its insane, I guess its coming here." Its insane.Were not where we were 10 years ago. 10 years ago, it was brilliant. Nowits missing stuff.So we need to ask ourselves what is it missing? What do we need? Whatsnot working about it? That doesnt take away anything from the great peoplewho did it 10 years ago. It was phenomenal but it doesnt last forever and Ithink we tended to not think anymore again. You know, Ive built this. Youlook in the manifesto and theres just a lot of stuff missing. If you look atwhat Ive been saying the last however long weve been talking, you will seetheres a lot of this missing. Of course it was missing, didnt need to talkabout it back then.What we needed back then is not where we are now. Building on thefoundation of manifesto we can go to a new level. I hope nobody takes thisas any kind of attack on that, absolutely not. Its wonderful but its manifestoby their nature of temporal and has to be re-looked at after a while. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  24. 24. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: I think thats said wonderfully, Alan. Whats on the horizon for NetObjectives and Alan Shalloway?Alan: Well, I think were getting more focused. Its funny you say thisbecause I just came back from... This is one advantage of being a CEO, wehad a leadership meeting, executive meeting and we did it in Kauai, Hawaii.Its one of my favorite islands there. And we were really looking at theindustry leadership and our focus and one of the things where... We actuallyare global now but were actually looking for expanding out into India, Asiaand China. A lot of our large accounts have training out there. I think youregoing to see more of that. I think some of the things Im talking about arereally included as well because were very much interested in how we canimprove the management and the things. How do you... Lean and Kanbanand Scrum make the management side better. Weve been doing this for afew years already but I think were getting more focused on the necessityand the knowledge of it. Thats really, I guess most of it.The other thing actually is sometimes were getting resurgence on thetechnical side. Its funny we started out as... I used to call us a designpattern company. Were 13 years old now just about and I remember, who Ijust totally love, just brilliant guy, and this was early on, like weve been inexistence year three.You shouldnt call yourself a pattern company and I realized he was right.Patterns were the solution, but really are launched at how do we help ourclients, how do we help people that have a software component. In asoftware component development firm, how do we help them move aheadwhen theres a product?Right after that, we went into Scrum and then cleaning up Kanban andbusiness portfolio and stuff like that. So I see that, well, its funny. We kindof moved all the way up to the front of the value stream. Weve been doingsome big stuff with large companies, but what I see is missing again, is theknowledge about the technical side.Its kind of funny the essential field work comes up because even though NetObjectives, people think of us probably, I think mostly as like Lean andKanban and all that, we are actually one of the strongest contingents oftechnical folks around. Ive written an award-winning book in the past calledPre-Factoring, Scott Bain or a jolt-bringing book Emergent Design. I thinkthe Design Patterns book is still right up there because it teaches you thethought process of patterns, not just what patterns and solutions are. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  25. 25. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsKolsky is our 4th author on the Essential Skills book and hes not thatwell-known but I tell you this guy knows as much or more than anybodyabout how to break stories down for testability, how to use tests in writingcode. Im actually putting a little bit more focus back into my roots I guess. Ithink a lot of teams, a lot of companies they focus solely on the process thattheyve kind of forgotten.If you have seen a little bit of resurgence with XP coming in now more intoscope which is really wonderful, it continues integration, TBB and things likethat. But theres still... The technical aspects of Agile are still so overlookedand we have such a great skill set. I think thats one of the things Im goingto putting my focus back. Maybe Im coming back full circle, and it may notbe me, actually its probably be like Scott, Ken and Amir would have to dothese more but I think we have to look strongly so we dont take advantageof whats known in how to design.We have just scratched the surface. We dont have to really create anythingnew. We just need people to build on what was done in XP, what was builton in APDD thats happening now and some of the things we built ourselves.The essential skills work is kind of also coming out because we feel thats theother holistic piece. Its not just them, its not just managers and not justprocess. You are writing codes and you got to know how to do that. I thinkthis is way overlooked.There are a lot of really smart people out there who are talking about thisand maybe helping the lead back. We may not lead it but at least add ourvoices to that. A lot of leaders out there but we want at least to put a lotmore of our energy on this so people recognize that were not just processfolks, were not just business and managers folks. We are a force to be dealtwith on the technical side.Joe: Well, I wanted to add that the Net Objectives website is just pack fullof information and even given up your email, you get very little informationsent to you. I have to admit that you do a wonderfully, tasteful job ofmanaging the information that people get from you and replying them. Youdo a marvelous job there.Alan: Well, thanks. Our mantra has always been, from the beginning thatwere in service for people. Our values are basically service to thecustomers; serve value to us and value the industry is really the root core ofour value. So we have a lot on websites because its like selling ice cream.Whats the best way to sell ice cream? Well, its not enough to describe how Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  26. 26. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemswonderful it is, is to give a little taste. So weve always thought that one wayof serving people is giving them taste. In this case, this information and yetwe have to respect people. So we know people are busy. We try to do itanytime we talk to you, well give you value. Thats an important part. Thatscreating industry values, an important part of our company.I think thats really why weve been successful. Yet I think, its just thebeginning. I really think the best is just ahead of us as we now move intohow to really help guide the industry. For the first several years, I think wewere more just practitioners and we started having a role in guiding and wehave a role we play in the Lean software systems consortium which has,does great, really theyve done the best conferences Ive been to, like 60,70conferences Ive been throughout my career.Their three have been my top three and we spawn the whole bunch ofconferences in Europe that Im proud to see and I think were going to seemore and more of this integration of ideas and the next one by the waysince I mentioned the conferences is in Boston in the U.S. in May. Its like 12to 14 committees getting those [inaudible 58:30] by May next year inBoston and theyre all coming up in Europe, on the Europe side.I think whats really neat about the Lean Kanban community and DaveAnderson is organizing in the U.S. conferences is so brilliant is that he takespeople who are really brilliant but you dont necessarily associate with Lean.Maybe thats the other piece is bringing all these people. I mean, softwaredevelopment is an extraordinarily complex development and whether its ITor product development and because of that, you need to keep bringing inall these different aspects of things and not just have this super narrowfocus.To do this, is extremely uncomfortable for a lot of people. So how do you dothis when you know youre making people uncomfortable but you get themto kind of go forward and this has really changed dynamics. Its excitingbecause its about transforming people. Its about really having peopleslives work. I like what I do, theres no question. My job is really interesting.Weve been financially successful. But what really gets me up in the day isreally serving people and transforming them and I think thats really whatNet Objectives is up to.I think thats really what a lot of companies out there do, a lot of the greatconsultancies that are there, they know the real thing is service. Im not Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  27. 27. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemssaying that were unique although I dont know think there are that many ofus out there. I think thats what really gets great servers, people are reallyare into service. I think we got to just keep doing it and figuring it out andthats really kind of my mantra. I feel both humble and proud and happythat I get a shot at thisJoe: Whats the best way to contact you?Alan: I love people talking to me, just andcheck out our website, Im on user groups. There isthe Lean Agile Yahoo group I moderate. I work on the Kanban DevelopmentGroup a lot. Im on a lot of the Scum communities because I see a lot ofpeople struggling on things we help solve and just do a shout out or justsend me an email. Im happy to talk, happy to send information back. Thatsjust part of my job.Joe: OK. Well, I would like to thank you very much, Alan. I appreciate theentire conversation here. This podcast will be available in Business901website and also the Business901 iTune Store. So thank you very much.Alan: I appreciate the feedback. This has been very actually fun and veryenjoyable, so thank you. Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901
  28. 28. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Ph: 260-438-0411 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: Web/Blog: Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joes ability to combine his expertise with "out of the box" thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, cost effectively and with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure to work with." James R.Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providingdirection in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, ProductLaunches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt,Business901 provides and implements marketing, project and performanceplanning methodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a singleflexible model will create clarity for your staff and as a result betterexecution. My goal is to allow you spend your time on the need versus theplan.An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with aconsulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtualassistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities toplug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. Asproficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting theprocess as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processeswill become a habit and not an event. Business901 Podcast Opportunity Expert Status Lean is the tool that Creates the Customer Relationship Copyright Business901