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Is Lean Architecture needed in Agile


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We talked about the evolution and interpretation of Lean and/or Toyota Production System (TPS) and their relationship with Scrum. It is interesting how they complement each other. In one sense, it is interesting how Scrum is hardly more than a PDCA cycle. But on the other hand it really enhances the PDCA cycle in the spirit of teamwork and flow.

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Is Lean Architecture needed in Agile

  1. 1. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWhy Architecture is needed even in Agile? Guest was author Jim (“Cope”) CoplienRelated Podcast:Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  2. 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim ("Cope") Coplien is an old C++ shark who now integrates thetechnological and human sides of the software business as anauthor, coach, trainer, and executive consultant. He is one of thefounders of the software pattern discipline, and his organizationalpatterns work is one of the foundations of both Scrum and XP. Hecurrently works for Gertrud & Cope, is based in Denmark, and is apartner in the Scrum Foundation. He has authored or co-authoredmany books, including the recently released Wiley title, Lean Architecture for Agile Software Development. When he grows up, he wants to be an anthropologist. Gertrud & Cope is a small family business driven by Gertrud Bjørnvig and Jim Coplien. We focus on Agile software development integrated with the power ofarchitecture and usability. We serve a wide variety of softwaredevelopment cultures including RUP, CMMI, and XP practices, butour focus and specialty is Scrum. Our services include AgileRequirements, Agile Architecture, Agile Usability, Agile Test, andAgile Organizational Analysis.Cope is a speaker and author whose works range fromprogramming and architecture to ethnography and organizationaldesign. Though he writes for a technical audience, his worksfocus on the human element of product development. His latestwork, “Lean Architecture” is as much about how architecturehelps make software usable, as it is about softwaremaintainability on the technical side. James O. Coplien Amazon Page Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  3. 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim Coplien: I think, when I really practiced this the Toyotaway; the Toyota production system. I go back to the roots andspend a lot of time with the Japanese folks, to go back to thefoundations of it and its often a very difficult cultural translation,particularly into North America. I think, even more so into NorthAmerica than into Europe. When I go into the companies there,theyll be doing, for example, some of the practices of Lean, butthey really dont get the underlying Japanese philosophy. I mean,it gives them some benefit, but its really not what I would callLean, in terms of the way the Toyota people envisioned it.Joe Dager: I think, thats what weve struggled with a lot in theUS, is going to that next level. Its like we scrape off the top ofthe tools, but we never go, really, deep into our organizations toinstill it the rest of the way. The cultural side, maybe, a little bit.Jim: Yeah, and, of course, we have some of that in Europe. Itsnot only with Lean. I see this all over with the IT industry. Icannot think of a single major advance in software where thatdidnt happen in some degree. I dont know if we can blamemarket opportunism or short-term market focus, or whatever,but that seems to be a universal problem that the good drives outthe perfect.Joe: Welcome, everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host of theBusiness901 podcast. With me today, is Jim Coplien, a softwareindustry pioneer in object-oriented design, architectural patternsin Agile software development. He has authored several books onsoftware design. His latest book is called "The Lean Architecture."Joe: Start out, and just give me that elevator speech aboutyourself? Finish the introduction off.Jim: Most of the time I get up in front of audiences here inEurope, which is where most of my constituency is, and the firstthing I need to do is explain my accent, and that I was born in Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  4. 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsthe US. And if we fast forward, I guess, I can include that I wasan electrical engineer, and have gone through a lot of differentcareers and jobs over the past years, including 20 years at BellLaboratories, where I did a lot of software things. I have been aconsultant, a university professor, and even some hardware workalong the way.So, Im older than I look, and Im older than I sound. I guess,Ive been around the block and had a lot of fun on the way.Joe: Whats your new book about? What were you after with"The Lean Architecture"?Jim: The title is "Lean Architecture." And then, the second partis "For Agile Software Development." What the book comes fromis looking at the advent of Agile software development. Almost,exactly, 10 years ago -- here in about a month, well have the10th anniversary of the Agile manifesto. The 17 Agile guys, whogot together and did that, had a good vision and some goodideas. But, of course, like any good idea, theyre not complete.They have to be mixed with some other things.Unfortunately, what happened in the market is, first of all, peopletook this very one-sided view. They took some provisions of whatare in the Agile manifesto, which is this document that kind oflaunched the Agile movement. It came out of a meeting of these17 guys in the US, back 10 years ago.The other thing is that, of course, a lot of people kind ofinterpreted it in their own way, and then, added a lot of stuff thatwasnt intended. But more importantly, Agile really was a reactionagainst some of the methodological excesses of the 1980s and1990s.And too often, they ended up throwing the baby out with thebathwater. Theres a lot in there about doing, and building Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  5. 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemssoftware, and talking with customers, and so forth. But theresvery, very, very little about thinking. So, one of the casualties ofAgile has been architecture. The Agile people would tell you thatarchitecture is only emergent and that you shouldnt do anyupfront thinking because its waste and youre not going to needthis. I think that posture largely came out of ignorance on thepart of the young, eager folks at the time to try to do somethinggood.So it was well meaning, but it really ended up doing a decade of alot of damage. What Im trying to do is get the pendulum toswing back somewhere near the middle, where we can blendsome of the principles of Agile with the more deeper and olderand more classic Lean principles of thinking and upfront planning.Joe: And is that where Lean fits in then?Jim: The Lean part, a lot of it has to do with the upfrontplanning. Some of these notions that we find in Lean like decisionstructure matrices and this whole idea that youre thinking aboutwhat youre going to be doing before you do it. Now that doesntmean you commit to doing it. Of course, you still have some ofthe so-called Agile principles where you can change your mind.But, of course, those were fundamental to Lean long before Agilecame along. And since youre a Lean guy and this is a Leanaudience, theres just, I think, a lot of common misconceptions inthe broad software world about the relationship between Leanand Agile. I think that also explains a lot of the posture of thebook. A lot of people will come out and say, "Well, Agile and Leanare the same thing," and some other people will say they havenothing to do with each other, and both of those are wrong.Most of what you find in Agile was already there in Lean, both interms of whats in the manifesto and in terms of the culture andthe practices. There are some emphases that Agile have that aregood and are useful and go beyond Lean. But probably the main Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  6. 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsdistinguishing factors of Lean that come out in the LeanArchitecture book that you dont find in Agile are this notion ofdoing some upfront planning and looking at some issues ofsystem form, of architecture, and of some of the focus you find inLean on the process, whereas the focus in Agile is solely on theproduct. I think Lean has more of a balance of these two.Joe: Thats what I found in the book when I first picked it up andlooked at it, it was like a Lean book to me. It wasnt driven, letssay, by the software side of it where I would get lost. Thatconnection between Lean and Agile, I thought, was made verywell because everybody, Jim, always tries to make their ownmethodology, the umbrella, the thing thats bigger than life,cause thats my methodology. I thought you put a nice balanceto that in the book.Jim: Well, actually thats good to hear on both counts. So first ofall, thanks. Thats good feedback that is general. And yes, I agreethat everyone has their hammer and so every problem looks likea nail. But one of the early reviews -- I think it was maybe TrygveReenskaugs review -- said something very similar to what youjust said. It said this book isnt just selling a given technique.What its trying to do is look at the Lean principles and its notjust a methodology. Its taking people down the path of thinking,of adapting some of these principles to their own industries, theirown products, using the principles as a touchstone to figure outwhat theyre going to do.Joe: I found it interesting that you talk about Lean and thenthinking, kind of blending them two together.Jim: Well again, as we briefly discussed maybe before youstarted the recording, Lean means many things. Lean was coinedby these authors of this great Lean book back in 1991 in the US.It was actually about the Toyota production system, which, ofcourse, has swept a lot of the industry in Japan. They coined the Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  7. 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsterm "Lean" for it. That helped popularize the term and some ofthe approaches in America. GM was doing some really good Leanthings for a while that were part of Toyotas early forays into theAmerican market through the NUMMI plant. Ford tried to get onthe bandwagon as well. But if you look at broad Americanindustry, a lot of places that use the term "Lean," it’s in a lotdifferent sense than the Japanese use it. So what Ive been doingfor years and years and years is making an investment in tryingto understand what does Taiichi Ohno mean by Lean? What didTakeuchi and Nonaka mean by what they were talking about in"This New New Product Development Game," which is the paperthat appeared back in 1984 in the Harvard Business Review thatlaunched Scrum? Trying to go back to those fundamental roots.I know that Jeff Sutherland, whos the inventor of Scrum -- Jeffand I worked together -- also was very inspired by elements ofJapanese culture and even as deep into issues as Buddhistmeditation. Now this gets the designer and the enterprise into athinking mode where youre not just reacting but youre thinkingabout how do I fit into the larger ecosystem? How do I fit intosociety? How am I going to make a fundamental contribution inthe society in which I am indebted? What does value mean? Whatare my value streams?As a consultant when I go into companies, one of the things Illask them is, "What are your value streams?" And they say,"Duh?" And, "Oh, what are your products?" And Ill often get ananswer that "Well, you know. We have two products" or "We have200" or "We have 40. Well, its something in between. Well, wedo stuff and we make money." And they dont really have thisthought, this discipline, of what value means to them. So theyrevery Agile sometimes, but theyre not Lean. This leads to all themore commonly known Lean consequences like waste andinconsistency and a lot of the practices and tools. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  8. 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWhat I find in the broad industrial world, particularly in the US, isthey know the tools, but they really dont know the underlyingprinciples and structure. What Im trying to do with this thinking,and particularly upfront thought that comes with architecture, istake people more in that direction.Joe: So can you explain just a little bit and define architecture tome?Jim: Oh, which one of the 5,742 definitions do you want?Joe: Well, thats kind of where I was going with it. I was sittinghere and saying what...Jim: Well, the definition that is most commonly used and, ofcourse, any dictionary definition is wrong, is what architecture isform. Then for the people who want to hear more I say theres adifference between structure and form. The metaphor I use isthat if youre in a manufacturing plant that makes soda popbottles or something like that, the bottle is the actualstructure -- the soda pop bottle -- but it isnt the form. The formis the essence of that bottle. So somewhere in the factory theretheres a form into which they inject molten glass. After the glasscools, they open the form and the bottle drops out. Well, theycould have injected molten plastic. They could have injectedmolten chocolate for all I care and made a bottle out of thosestructures, out of that material. But the form is the essence ofthe thing thats being built.Now its a little bit of a weak metaphor, but you get the idea, isthat the form, the skeleton, the major thematic elements ofstructure are what I call the form. Thats the architecture. Thereare a lot of things that go with that, too. Of course, an architecthas to know their materials, and so theres always engineeringaspects to architecture. There are aesthetic aspects toarchitecture, especially in software. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  9. 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsThis is something thats I think again not appreciated by softwarepeople is some of the history of, for example, object-orientedprogramming, which is a lot about the human being interactingwith the computer and how theyre mental model is captured bythe structure of the program inside the computer. So from anobject-oriented programmers point of view, what architecturemeans is the end users mental model. How do I create a form ofthe system that echoes the forms that are latent in the end usersmind?That takes us into the classic architectural notions of aesthetics.Its a huge, huge, huge work that covers psychology andperception and physics and engineering and just about everythingyou can think of, but to me the unifying concept here is form.Joe: I did like how your book talked about the functionality andwhat the system does. Its one thing to sit there and says userstories, but I thought the book was very well written because Itouch upon that field but Im not a software developer. But I gotit when I read your book. Maybe not as deep as what someoneelse would understand it, but I certainly understood the writingand I thought it was very well written.Jim: But Ill bet you found parallels in your experiences in otherdisciplines.Joe: Well, thats exactly right. One of the questions I have foryou written down here is it seems that were finding a lot ofparallels in business today, in manufacturing, and in Lean withthe Agile community. Its like the software developers are leadingthe methodologies were picking up behind it, even in some of thedecision structures were using. Can you say why that is or doyou know?Jim: Well, Im not sure why but first of all, yes. I very stronglyagree with you. Second of all, Im horrified to death that its Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  10. 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemshappening. And third, yes, Ive been puzzling over the samequestion for about 20 years. But one of the things Ive beenworking on a lot for 20 or -- maybe even longer -- 30 years islooking at the history of engineering and engineering designing inthe computing field. And its fascinating. In particular theres thisfascinating chapter during the 1980s. It was called the DesignMovement. Its like no one ever teaches this stuff in anycomputer science curricula, and its really a shame because itreally has these deep insights into what design is about. But itwas all these people who got together and said, "Gee. You know,were building homes. Were building highways. Were doing civilengineering. Were building software. We all do this thing calleddesign. Oh, gee! Design must be this thing. Well, lets gettogether and lets understand what design is, and lets create thisnotion of method." They played around with this for 10 or soyears.They found out that, because of emergent requirements andsome things that physicists have known for a long time about thenature of the way the world works, then in fact what thephysicists know generalizes to a lot of other human and scientificphenomena in that you really cant have a notion of method. Soeveryone abandoned method except for the software engineers,so theyre kind of living in this la-la land fooling themselves abouthow scientific design can be.Now theres an architect, I think his name was L. Bruce Archer,who made the same observation that you just did but I think hemade it probably 25 years ago -- that in fact its thisman-bites-dog thing, where you find software, which is this newsnot-nosed kid on the block leading the design thinking in classicfields like architecture and engineering.Your head just has to spin and say, "Why is this so?" Maybe itsbecause they have nicer toys or maybe its because of what Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  11. 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemstheyre smoking. In other words, they think that design is thisreal thing worth studying, and so they paid more attention to it. Idont know.Joe: The Agile side and the learning concepts and the shorteriterations and the loops that theyre trying to build within to getto the customer -- even to the prototypes that theyre trying tobuild so they can get customer feedback earlier -- and it makessense, but why is software 10 years ahead of us?Jim: This is another one of those arguments. We in software arekind of embarrassingly proud to point to our failures and say,"Look what a colossal monsters that we have to tilt at!" I thinkwe sometimes around the bar well cry in our beer about howhorrific and wondrous an industry we are in. Then someone willcome up and say, "Oh, but heres a film of a bridge falling apart!"Or some engineers trying to blow up a building and the wholething just kind of rolls over five other buildings instead of blowingup and falling on the ground.So, were not alone in having massive schedule overruns. Peoplepoint to the Sydney Opera House, which is a story we know wellhere in Denmark, of course, because the architect here followedthat. I dont think that software is alone in its failures and I dontthink that the engineering disciplines are alone in being ahead orin being behind. Im not convinced that theres any one of thesedisciplines that has the answer.Joe: Im not sure there is either but I do think what we haveseen as the knowledge field has transpired and theres moreknowledge than has expanded in every field, that were becomingmore knowledge creation in practically every field. I mean, whenyou think about 75 percent of everything built is any morepractically has a smart side to it, an intelligence side to it. Webecome more of a knowledge field, softwares led us into the Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  12. 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsknowledge field and thats why were adapting Agile. I mean, itskind of like a short take on it?Jim: Well, except that I dont think that Agile is aboutknowledge. You hit a keystone here. Knowledge really, you sayfield. Thats an interesting word. I wont argue field but if you hadsaid discipline, I will certainly argue that because we dont have aknowledge discipline. We do have a knowledge market. So, if Ican sell services or consulting, thats certainly a growing market.But the last time we tried to make knowledge a discipline insoftware, was in the pattern discipline. In fact, we borrowedthese ideas from an architect named Christopher Alexander whosaid, "We know how to build houses. A culture learns overthousands of years how to build its houses instead of reinventingthings all the time or doing architecture for arts sake, which iswhat modern architects do. Lets build homes and followarchitectural mores thats sort of comfort and quality of life." Hewas seen as kind of a lunatic.Well, the software field took big inspiration from him in saying itsworthwhile building a body of literature around what weknow -- that is building a culture of knowledge. And to somedegree there are a few people whos been able to hold on to thatand to drive some of those principals forward. But, again, it morebecame a market of knowledge rather than a discipline ofknowledge. That, again, has something to do with 20th centurylife and the way that markets work.I dont know, I think a lot of it goes back to the 1960s when wevalued progress for its own sake. I suspect that were probably ofabout the same generation and that we can remember the greataccolades and scientific advances back in the 1960s.Joe: Sure. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  13. 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJim: Anything old was not worth valuing, it had to be moot. Ifyou have an analog watch, you were passé, it had to be a digitalwatch.Joe: Is Agile cutting edge anymore? Or Scrum, is this old hatand may be being replaced by, lets say Kanban?Jim: What does cutting edge mean? Do you mean thismarketing thing? Are you asking what has the market mindshare?Or are you asking what the advancement of social knowledge is?Joe: Im thinking Agile has got into the accepted practice, Imean, at the top of the bell. But is it falling off the curve here orbeing replaced now with the Kanban?Jim: Theyre all just words and it could be a long philosophicaldiscussion. I mean, my main model of industry is a pretty cynicalmodel. Im older than I look. Ive been writing software since1968 or 1969. So, Ive gone through several cycles at some levelof cycle. At least there are kind of two human generations andmany, many technological generations. I guess as King Solomonsaid, "Vanity, vanity! Alas all is vanity and the chasing of thewind! There is nothing new under the sun!" The same bad ideaskeep coming up on three-year cycles and seven-year cycles. Thenthey get beat down and then the generation forgets -- they havea very short memory -- and the same bad ideas come up sevenyears later. I have seen this inside companies again and again.One of the things I like about Scrum is that Scrum somehow hasbroken out of that cycle and I think the reason is that Jeff got afew more standard deviations of the mean than most people do. Ican tell you something really, really crazy things about the originsof Scrum but probably cant do it here on this podcast. It gets toointricate and would take too long. But the point is were not inKansas anymore when you get into Scrum. Part of this again,gets back to what we talked about earlier. Scrum is rooted in Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  14. 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemswhat we might call more of the Japanese view of what Americanscall Lean.In this paper by Takeuchi and Nonaka, "New New ProductDevelopment Game," very high innovation, very high parallelism,working right on the edge of chaos. If I trace back Scrum and itsorigins, which is some of the talks that Im giving this year andarchitecture conferences and elsewhere.You can trace this literally back hundreds of years. You can findvery strong parallels between some of the current dominantthinking in software architecture and some of the philosophybehind Scrum and some of the philosophy behind Toyota andsome of the things in broader Lean. They all go back to the samefew principals that have to do with human behavior.Agile is a relatively young wet-behind-the-ears kind of thing,about 10 years old. Its very software centric. I dont think peoplehad the breadth of vision of human behavior or society whentheyve put this together. I know most of these guys. In fact, Iwas invited to that meeting but was unable to attend for healthreasons. Actually theyre having a reunion next month. I gotinvited to that but I have a business conflict.Agile is provocative. I think got a lot of social mindshare in a waythat causes people to question a lot of the dysfunction of the 80sand 90s. In that sense its good. But it really was pretty shallowand certainly in its adaptation I dont think people really got downto thinking at the level of the principals of the manifesto. Interms of Kanban, Kanban is largely a marketing packaging of aslightly misunderstood interpretation of Lean.Most of the marketing of Kanban is always around Kanban versusScrum. And from kind of 10,000 feet, what it looks like is that theKanban people are taking the fact that Scrum is so hard to do Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  15. 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsbecause its a discipline. Unlike Agile, which most people think islaid back California guitar playing programming.Scrum is this discipline and people going into it thinking its Agilefail. Then the Kanban people come along and they say, "Well, youreally dont have to think! You can just move around tasks at anytime and we have this queue that limits work in progress." Thenthey make a lot of claims about it saying its based in queuingtheory, which I dont know how it can be if youre moving thingsin the middle of the queue in the middle of doing queuinganalysis.Its a really nice marketing packaging and it may work for simpleservice processes like system administration or if youre running afirehouse or something like that. But I simply cant see how it canwork for building a product. We have had many, and anever-increasing number of clients who found Scrum too hard todo. They went into Kanban and they just said, "This just isnt forus. This is really not helping us in any way." So now theyre goingback and trying to do Scrum right, or Crystal, or something else.Joe: What makes Scrum hard to do?Jim: Because its a discipline. Its very simple. I mean, it saysyou cannot work any overtime. So, you know, managementcannot come near the end of the release and say, "Well, you needto put in some extra hours here in order to make ourcommitments." The other thing that makes it hard is that it runsagainst some of the prevailing values of industry. Industry says,"We believe that we can commit an arbitrary amount of work to afixed team and an arbitrary schedule. Well, OK, we know wecant, but well make it work by adding more people or by addingovertime or by trimming the fat," which means lets cut qualityhere and there. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  16. 16. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsScrum is uncompromising. It says, "Well, what we deliver, weregoing to deliver with the promised quality. If we cant deliver it,then we wont deliver. Were going to make it visible. The factthat we make that visible shows that, well, theres a problem inour process. We estimated wrong. We overcommitted and weneed to learn to do better next time." People hate this notion offailure.One of the key aspects of Lean that I think the Western worlddoesnt understand. In Lean, we keep saying Kaizen, Kaizen,Kaizen. Get better and better and better. Well, you go to theJapanese and they say, "There is no Kaizen without Hansei."Probably the closest interpretation of the word "Hansei" inEnglish, would be repentance. Its this deep sense of shame andapology and deep regret for not having built a process thatallowed you to meet your commitment. When you fail to meetyour commitment, the first step in Kaizen is Hansei, and youdont see many American managers going around doing Hansei.You certainly dont see proud nerd software engineers goingaround doing Hansei.Scrum is always focused on this Kaizen mind of being able to getbetter and better and better, and it takes a lot of humility. I thinkthats what makes it hard. It takes humility, and the humilitytakes a high degree of trust between individuals. People have tobe allowed to fail so they can learn. I havent been in threecompanies in the past 10 years that had enough trust to do whatthe Japanese are doing in Kaizen and Lean.Joe: Could I relate that specifically to PDCA a little bit, in theLean terminology there? Scrum is more Lean than, lets say,other types of Agile methods.Jim: Absolutely. Everyone thinks that Scrum came out of Agile.Now wait a minute, lets stop this for a second, because Scrum Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  17. 17. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemshas been around since 1993 and the Agile manifesto was 2001.How did Scrum come out of Agile? Its really the other wayaround. Or, even better, they both came out of Lean. Lean is afunny word that gets associated with different labels. In thesoftware world, where people think Lean, theyll usually thinkMary and Tom Poppendieck, who are doing a great job of gettingthe Lean message out in the software world. But theyve got tohave their own perspective. They have their own frame fromwhich they see the world. Its a different frame from which Scrumsees the world, and its a little bit different frame from whichToyota sees the world. But theyre all very, very much in thesame cauldron and the same genre of harking back to the originalToyota principles of Lean, whereas Agile is really kind of offsomewhere else.Scrum, as I said, comes from this paper by Takeuchi and Nonakain "Harvard Business Review" called the "New New ProductDevelopment Game" where Takeuchi and Nonaka looked atpractices at Honda, at Canon, at NEC, and a lot of othercontemporary Japanese corporations -- this was about1984 -- most of whom had learned their techniques by someconsultants whod come over from Toyota and taught them theLean principles.Thats where Jeff Sutherland got the ideas for Scrum, and thatwas one of the main influences on Scrum. Some of my researchin Bell Labs was another one of the influences on Scrum. Inparticular, things like stand-up meetings come out of the stuff wedid at Bell Laboratories. Then Jeff added incrementaldevelopment, iterative development, and time boxing. But mostof it comes from Lean, absolutely. So if you look at the planning,doing, reflecting, this Kaizen notion, the cycles that we get out ofLean; this is what Scrum is about, absolutely. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  18. 18. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: Now your book is not a Scrum book by any means though,is it? Who is your book directed at?Jim: No. I mean it depends what glasses you look at it through,right? It can be close, but no. Youre not going to learn Scrumfrom picking up the book. But if youre a Scrum practitioner,youre going to feel at home. Youre going to feel that thesethings fit.Jim: I think the primary audience, thinking people who havelooked at Agile and they come away a little bit skeptical becausethey see this thinking part or the architecture part or the planningpart or the domain analysis part missing. Theyre thinking,"Where does this fit in? How can I take my view of Agile andreconcile it with what Ive known works all these years in terms ofarchitecture?" So the main target is the people who already knowthat architecture has value or suspect that architecture has value.They want to reap some of the benefits of Scrum and of Lean andof Agile, and theyre trying to figure out how to do that.Maybe Im going to have a few converts along the way where Illtake the people who only believe in emergent architecture, andIll try to give them a perspective that some upfront planning hasvalue. I dont know. Im a little less hopeful about those. Id liketo be able to convert some of those people.But in fact Im guessing that most of the people who are going tobe able to pick up the book and, without struggling too much withtheir value system take it forward, are those who already have apenchant for thinking and know the value of planning. I need toemphasize here. I want to quote from Kevlin Henney becausepeople confuse two things. Its not about plans. Its aboutplanning.And Kevlin Henney quotes Dwight Eisenhower who said that, "Ifind when going into battle that plans are useless. Planning, Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  19. 19. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemshowever, I find to be indispensable." So Kevlin says, "Itsthe -ing! Its the -ing! Its planning, not the plan."So its this whole notion, this Lean notion, of a cross-functionalteam, of the entire team, where everybodys doing everythingfrom the beginning thats important to this planning perspectiveof authentic interconnectivity between people instead of havingstovepipes, of having the Toyota notion of this table whereeveryone works instead of an assembly line. So people who cansee that vision and see the value of that vision will be able to fallinto the book very naturally.Joe: I enjoyed the book tremendously. I struggled with the lasthalf of it a little bit because Im not a software guy.Jim: The last half is interesting for the nerds because this comesout of the vision of--well, kind of the original vision of--whatobject orientation was supposed to be which was this Nordicvision from people like Ole-Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard.Someone who was hanging around with them at the time was afriend of mine named Trygve Reenskaug, who just turned 80years old this last year. Hes the inventor of something thatsvery well known in software called "Model-View-Controller," whichis how most modern interactive applications are structured. Whatpeople dont understand is that the whole purpose of objectorientation was to engage the end user and to capture the endusers mental model. Well, Trygve knew that they got it half rightback in the 1970s. But there was this other part missing, and henever really had time to chase it down.Then he retired in 1997 and said, "OK, now its time to startdoing the real work." I hooked up with him a few years after that,and weve been working on the other half of this, which is thereal value proposition for software. Its not so much its structureof what the system is but the form of its function, which is whatwe deliver. Thats what gives software value, is what it does. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  20. 20. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsNow that has form as well. So function has form. In the last partof the book are software techniques to take the marketunderstanding of form or of requirements and get it more directlyinto the code than the object-oriented people ever allowed. Ithink this is a major advance in computing thinking, and most ofthe credit goes to Trygve in terms of the ideals and the models.Of course, well have to see. We can look for the next 10 or 20years and see how well its accepted and see what its benefit is.But I have very, very high hopes for those last two chapters, theso-called Data Context and Interaction, or DCI, Architecture.Joe: Why do you think that Lean is maybe understood differentlyin Europe than it is in the U. S.?Jim: I dont know if the gradient between Europe and the U. that great. I have a really hard time judging firsthand becauseI havent been in many software clients inside the US in the past10 years. Most of my software clients have been in Europe. So asLean has unfolded as a buzzword in software, its been difficult forme to compare the American and European markets. So I have todo this vicariously through the literature. Its even worse becausewhat Im doing is Im comparing what I read about how the autoindustry is starting embrace Lean in the US verses what Imexperiencing in software here in Europe and then try to calibratethis with what I talk about with the Japanese.So Im not really in a good position to give a blow-by-blowcomparison. I could get some wild guesses, but Im guessing mywild guesses or yours or your listeners would be just as good -- isthat Americans are a little bit more into doing and a little less intothinking. I mean theres this expansionist pioneering spirit inAmerica thats been so good for innovation where America hasoften outstripped Europe. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  21. 21. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsBut it may come at the expense of a discipline that works betterin an arena with scarce resources, and I think Europe has slightlyscarcer resources than America traditionally has had. Now, withlooking at dwindling oil resources over the next century andincreasing population and increasing demands on energy, thatmay start to change even the United States. And its hard toseparate in current, say, public policy what actually is part of along-term trend and to separate that from current political fads.But I see some good signs in the United States in that its startingto take more of this thinking posture rather than just areactionary posture. On the other hand, the Europeans arestarting to learn to innovate as well a lot more, and were seeingsome of the academic strings loosening up and a lot morecreativity here. Its just all in all becoming a smaller world and aworld community where its going to make less and less sense totalk about the cultural gradients between continents than it has inthe past.Joe: What have you learned that you were like maybe you werea little bit different that you would like to put in your book thatyou didnt?Jim: Oh, its too soon yet. I was just looking this morning, and itlooks like if you look at my books they tend to come out on justabout a six-year cycle. I think some of the ahas, and the gotchasand the oh, darns really only hit me two or three years after thebook comes out. Its only been a few months in the US. And bythe way, after you get a book out, you dont want to think aboutit for about a year because all youve been doing is thinking aboutit for six years.So I havent been thinking too much about that. But I had dinnerwith a colleague last night and we were talking aboutprogramming languages. Programming language technology infact right now is going through some exciting changes. Maybe if I Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  22. 22. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemswere to make one change, if I had to wind the clock back aboutfour years, I might have chosen a programming language otherthan C++ as the language I use to give the examples in software.It probably would have been probably some of the .NETframework view of things, the common language run time fromMicrosoft and probably using C# instead of C++ as the examplelanguage. So it doesnt really change anything at the level of theprinciples. I really doubt that Im going to seriously change mymind about any of the principles or foundational issues that are inthe book.One of the other things I realized when I woke up yesterdaymorning is, in reflecting back on my books, my first book, whichis the C++ book will be 20 years old this year. I thought, "Mygosh! Thats impossible. The thing is still in print and people arestill buying it."The reason isnt because of the C++ insights. Its because of thesystem design insights, and I tried to write on the basis oftimeless principles of design to the best that I can appreciatethem. Im not a person of fashion. Im not a person of fad. Soonce I make up my mind about something, I have to have a lot ofevidence to change my mind.So I dont think Im going to be waking up over the next couple ofyears and saying, "Oh, darn! I didnt really tailor the book wellenough to this fad." The closest it comes is this programminglanguage consideration for maybe reaching a broader audiencemore effectively, but thats kind of a shallow issue.Joe: How could someone get a hold of you or how would you likesomeone to learn more about the book? Whats out there forthem? Its on Amazon, I assume?Jim: Oh, yeah. Its on Amazon and Barnes and Noble andBorders and all the great book sites. We have a website for our Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  23. 23. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemscompany. I have a company together with my wife Gertrud, andits called Gertrud and Cope. So we have a website. Thatsprobably a good way to reach us. If you Google me, youllprobably find a lot of pointers that will allow you to get to me viaemail. And Im on Facebook and LinkedIn. Those are other goodplaces to get hold of me. Yeah, the book you can get in mostbookstores here and there. I show up at conferences now andthen. On my web page I have my calendar about what speakingengagements I have coming up. Im also a certified Scrum trainerfor the Scrum Alliance, and so you can contact me through theScrum Alliance.I mean not necessarily for engagement. I love talking with peopleand email. I love people who can challenge me and I canchallenge them back. Thats how I learn. So Id encourage peopleto get hold of me with questions about this podcast or to relatestories about what theyre doing or with inquiries about whattheyre doing.And Id be more than happy to interact with them over email andjust chat it up and give them all the benefit of whatever Ive seenalong the way that might be able to help them out. On the otherhand, I will ask them some hard questions, and Im going to askthem to think.Joe: Well, I think thats the fun part of it, so Id like to thank youvery much, Jim. I appreciated it. This podcast, of course, will beavailable on the Business901 blog site and the Business901iTunes store. So thanks again, Jim.Jim: Well, thank you, too, Joe. I think youre providing a goodservice in doing these things. Im really proud to have beenchosen to work with you on this, so thanks a lot. Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901
  24. 24. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Ph: 260-438-0411 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: Web/Blog: Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joes ability to combine his expertise with "out of the box"thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, cost effectivelyand with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure to work with."James R.Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providingdirection in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, ProductLaunches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt,Business901 provides and implements marketing, project and performanceplanning methodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a singleflexible model will create clarity for your staff and as a result betterexecution. My goal is to allow you spend your time on the need versus theplan.An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with aconsulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtualassistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities toplug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. Asproficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting theprocess as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processeswill become a habit and not an event. Business901 Podcast Opportunity Expert Status Why Architecture is needed even in Agile? Copyright Business901