A New approach to Lean


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Robert Fritz, composer, filmmaker and organizational consultant is the founder of Technologies for Creating. During the past twenty-five years, over 80,000 people in 27 countries have participated in trainings created by Robert Fritz. His insights on the creative process and structural dynamics serve as the foundation of meaningful and lasting change for both individuals and organizations.

This is a transcription of the podcast: A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz:

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A New approach to Lean

  1. 1. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Approaching Lean from a Different Perspective Guest was Robert Fritz Related Podcast: A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Sponsored by A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  2. 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Robert Fritz has been around the Dr. Deming world, which we discuss in the latter part of the podcast, since the 1970s. You may even recognize his work as he was an instrumental part of the original Systems Thinking Group with Peter Senge. Peter actually offers a marvelous introduction in the book. Robert Fritz, composer, filmmaker and organizational consultant is the founder of Technologies forCreating. During the past twenty-fiveyears, over 80,000 people in 27 countrieshave participated in trainings created byRobert Fritz. His insights on the creativeprocess and structural dynamics serve asthe foundation of meaningful and lastingchange for both individuals andorganizations.In Robert Fritz’s, The Path of LeastResistance for Managers (In the newedition, Robert has added a chapter onLean in the update) and calls it “The NewLean.” A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  3. 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Transcription of PodcastJoe: Yes, how did your workshop go? Were you pleased?Robert: Great. It was really great. It was a three -day workshop and we covered traditional Lean and then transferred it into the structural approach to Lean and everybody saw how much more efficient it was. The structural approach toward it created these tremendous efficiencies, we designed many, many systems. We had a couple of experimental ones, model ones, demo ones but then the rest of them were all from real life, from people in the room. It was really quite extraordinary to see how quickly through more of a compositional approach they could design very, very comprehensive and economy of means types of systems.Joe: Im intrigued by it, because are you familiar with the Toyota Kata work that Mike Rother did because its very, very familiar. I mean its very similar type thinking and talk.Robert: Its not. Not in orientation - not in orientation at all.Joe: Really, why?Robert: I really think, Joe; were breaking new ground here in reinventing the whole subject matter. So its not like theme in variations. Its really like a new song; its like a new... Its like another generation of Lean.Joe: I think you are breaking new ground with it. It’s discovery. Its creating that tension. Its in creating A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  4. 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems really that structural tension with the customer. Welcome everyone; this is Joe Dager the host of the Business901 Podcast. With me today is Robert Fritz. Robert is a composer, filmmaker, organizational consultant, and founder of Technologies for Creating, and author of numerous books, including the bestseller, "The Path of Least Resistance." His latest, I believe is a re-write of "The Path of Least Resistance for Managers." Robert, Id like to welcome you and mention that Im a long-time fan back from the mid-90s in my systems thinking days and where I first ran across your first book and later read your book "Creating". I have to admit that I lost track of your writing and did not read "The Path of Least Resistance for Managers" until probably around 2006 or so, when a colleague of mine recommended it by saying that, "I wish this would have been the first business book that Ive ever read." Give me the elevator speech in why you re-wrote "The Path of Least Resistance for Managers."Robert: The reason I wrote the first version of it was because what I was seeing in organization. First of all, let me sort of describe what I mean by the path of least resistance - just the phrase itself because there are two meanings to that. One is the colloquial meaning, which is the easy way out and the other is the scientific meaning which is an energy moves where its easiest for it to go. What Im referring to is the scientific meaning, not the colloquial meaning. What I saw in organizations over A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  5. 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems the years was that organizations were often structured in such a way that success did not always succeed. I saw that there were two patterns that were common. One was advancement in which you set out for something; you get it, and the success becomes a platform for future success, and of course thats how we would all like it to be. But too often its not that way. It actually is something thats a different pattern, one that oscillates. That is you set out for something, you get it, and then something happens and theres a reversal, and you lose what you gained. This kind of oscillating pattern weve seen over and over, over the last 30, 40 years in organizations. Where organizations build up capacity and then they downsize, and they build up capacity and then they downsize. They decentralize decision-making, and then they centralize it again, and they decentralize and centralize. They focus on shareholder return on investment and then they switch to customer satisfaction, and then back to shareholder and on and on we can predict, we can see these oscillations and they are predictable. And the question then became what gives rise to these obvious patterns of behavior. By the way, when youre in those systems, theyre not obvious, but when you back out of the system and just look at it from a longer-range time frame, they become kind of hard to miss.Joe: Do companies do that when lets say they, change CEOs? I know in football, it always seems like you have an offensive type coach and what you need is defense A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  6. 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems so the next time they hire a new head coach, they always hire the defensive guy then because thats what theyre doing wrong. Is that kind of the oscillation that you mean?Robert: Sometimes its within the same management system and sometimes its the change of a management system which then changes back, which then changes back. It almost doesnt matter if theyre in a structure that gives rise to an oscillating pattern of behavior. The last point I want to make before saying why I rewrote the book is that it is the underlying structure. By “structure," Im not talking about reporting relationships. Im talking about the combination of ingredients of all the elements, the desires, aspirations, reward systems, market, product, etc., etc., etc. All of those things combine to create a like a musical piece. They combine to create a tendency for behavior. If you dont change the underlying structure, and if its not an oscillating structure, and if you try to make a change happen within an oscillating structure. We will see the pattern of the change first being accepted and then being rejected. It doesnt matter how good the change effort itself is, its the underlying structure that will determine whether or not it succeeds.Joe: Is that the culture?Robert: No, its something that causes the culture, the underlying structure. A good example of a change of underlying structure is when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. If you remember at that time, Apple was being talked about as being sold; they were being talked A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  7. 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems about as being a clone, like a PC clone. When Steve Jobs came back he changed the underlying structure of the company and of the business strategy and thats led to their tremendous success. But a change of underlying structure was required and thats what Jobs did when he came back is he really changed not the culture. The culture is a by-product. People talk about culture, but its ridiculous because they never ask, "What causes the culture?" Its the underlying structure that causes the culture. If I dont have a change in the underlying structure, I dont have a change in anything. So the best efforts can fail because theres no change of whats causing the behavior that were seeing. I rewrote the book because 12 years later after I wrote the original version I had seen so much, I had put so much to the test of what was in that book. I had so many more examples and it was 12 years later and it really needed an update. So I rewrote it and added probably 100 pages, emphasized leadership more than ever as you and I have just been talking a new chapter on what Im calling the new Lean or the structural approach to Lean, which is a rethink of Lean management.Joe: Smaller picture we see it practically day to day. So what youre talking about doesnt necessarily have to apply just in the big picture, the Apple to Steve Jobs thing, this also plays in day to day work.Robert: Oh sure. Look, Ill just give you a quick example. If I reward the sales of folks for building up sales and I reward the factory for making quality and suddenly the A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  8. 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems sales overwhelm the factory where their quality goes down and then what happens from that is customers start going away. When they do that, the sales senior sales people say we need more sales; they build up more sales. Again, theres a cycle where it overwhelms the factory and you have oscillating quality; you have oscillating sales, and often its thought that you have a personality conflict between the head of sales and the head of the factory and you dont. What you have is a structure in which rewarding people for doing two different things that are contradictory. The way to change that is to really have the sales goal and quality goal be exactly the same, so we dont make more than we sell more than we can make, but we do sell as many as we can make. But thats thinking relationally. Im thinking about quality and sales together versus fragmenting them like most organizations do.Joe: But thats not really possible. I mean youre always going to have an unbalance arent you? I mean, theres never going to be that commonality in that example. I mean theres always . . .Robert: No, its not possible if you dont do it. But its possible if you do it. And that means Ive got to get sales and Ive got to get senior management in the room. This is where leadership counts. You know we just dont sort of reward, set these guys off on their journeys, reward them for success and not notice that if one of them is successful, its going to hurt the other one. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  9. 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems We really have to think about it more systemically, more holistically, more structurally, more like putting a composition together, more like how music is written where the parts really fit together rather than inadvertently fight against each other. When I look at a lot of organizations all, I see is bad composition. By the way, Im a composer, so my reference is how we write music. I look at these things and its really not that complicated both to understand but also to change because what Ive got to do then is start to understand the relationships or the networks of relationships and the dependencies of them to each other and then how to better organize the goals.Joe: I think thats the key understanding the networks. Is this, what hinders when we talk about the failures of any type of a transformation and mostly in my world, we talk about a Lean transformation and how often they fail. Is this underlying structure the key to why these failures occur?Robert: I think there are two keys to why those failures occur. One is certainly structural. But the other I think is also, theres the nature of the way traditional Lean has been set up that builds in its failure. Its just the nature of how it is. Let me say about traditional Lean, I think therere some very good things about it and I think when it has worked it has produced some tremendous results. But as most Lean people know it really is hard to put it into an organization and have it sustain itself. I think there are reasons for that, structural reasons for that. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  10. 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Thats the nature of the beast. Ive gotten interested in over the last number of years is to redesign, reinvent in a way, the whole process of Lean so that in fact, it is sustainable, it does work. People are interested in it and enthusiastic about it not from a devotee kind of point of view. Because a lot of times when you look at Lean organizations, youve got a group of folks who are almost like religious nuts. You know and everything is waste unless its value to the customer and their complete purists and theres the rest of the organization who hates them.Joe: Is this what you mean by the new Lean? What youre proposing here?Robert: Let me tell. Let me say some of the differences between traditional Lean and what were doing. Traditional Lean is problem-based. So the first thing that people do is they look for problems and then they try to eradicate the problems and heres just a fact that all of us as human beings will know. You can solve all of your problems and still not have what you want. One of the things that, if you notice, in my books, Im always criticizing problem-solving, particularly if its chronic. I know managers love problem solving but probably one of the worst things you can do is spend your time problem solving. What the difference is when we work with organizations one of the first things we do is help them change their orientation from a problem orientation to an outcome orientation. Rather than asking the question, "What are we trying A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  11. 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems to get rid of? What problems are we trying to solve?" The question becomes, "What are the outcomes were trying to achieve?" What are we trying to produce? What are we trying to create?" And thats not just the change of a question it really is a change of orientation. How we think about things. The second step in that orientation is to look at current reality. Where are we now in relation to where we want to be? That will not only include the problems. It will include everything: the good, the bad, and the ugly. You know, everything there is to see thats relevant to that outcome we need to be looking at and that includes the advantages as well. The question becomes how do we move from where we are to where we want to be and thats really the key to innovation. Thats when we begin to understand and conceive of things, we hadnt thought of before, some of which will be real innovations in process improvements. In a way, limitation of traditional Lean is its problem based.Joe: One of the things that I want to ask you before you go on though. It seems a lot of people have problems with identifying current reality. I hate to say it that way but theres always a “What if?” Or “This isnt quite true,” or they paint different scenarios than really accepting what current state is and you expand on that in your work. Im not sure which book cause I got them kind of comingled in my mind a little but is there a secret to defining current reality?Robert: Well, remember one of my famous quotes according to Google is, reality is an acquired taste. And I think A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  12. 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems thats true, but if we start with, "What is the outcome we want?" Were not looking at general reality, "What is existence?" Were looking at reality specific to the outcome. And when we can measure that we measure that. Its not so much a matter of opinion because, lets say you and I are disagreeing about what it is instead of fighting it out about whos right and whos wrong, we ask each other questions. "Why are you seeing what youre seeing?" "What do I need to know to understand the difference between what Im seeing and what youre seeing?" You would ask me the same question, "What do I need to know?" "How are we to explain the discrepancy?" Lets together look and study reality and find out what there is to see and well either change our minds or add insight or well certainly come up with a fairly objective understanding, an adequate understanding of where we are in relation to where we want to be. The other thing is well test that out over time because as we create a strategy to move that strategy will let us know how well were doing because what we expect is that reality will change in favor of what we want and if it doesnt we then study it some more to find what we got wrong. So instead of just being an opinion dump what we really do is become students of reality. Were motivated to do that because we want the outcome.Joe: It sounds like a great way to enter a sales conversation.Robert: Its one of the best ways to enter a sales conversation A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  13. 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems because the essence of really, real sales professionalism is to find the match between the customers motivation and desires and the offer that were making. If its really a good match, we have a basis of doing business. The professionals, the really great professional salespeople study the motivation of the customers. Im really on purpose now saying motivation rather than need because people dont always do what they need, but they always do what theyre motivated to do. So how are they making their choices? How are they deciding what theyre deciding? How does that compare to what were offering and if theres a good match, I call this the secret to good business strategy. Make them an offer they cant refuse. Not in “The Godfather” sense, but in the sense that its so good that you really want to say yes to it.Joe: You know it sounds similar to Toyota Kata and then we have a current condition, a target condition, and we aim for that. Can you explain some differences between what the new Lean is as you describe it and the Toyota Kata?Robert: Yes, ironically I think that in the process of Lean itself, theres a lot of waste.Joe: Oh, youll stir up someone on that one.Robert: Let me give you an example of this. We just did a training here last week on the new Lean and I did it with Elsie Ford, whos a traditional Lean expert; shes also a structural consultant, so shes done a lot of our A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  14. 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems work and Elsies role was to sort of educate the folks or remind them of the traditional Lean approaches like Toyota. She brought with her one of the games that they do; its the putting a pen together thing and therere instructions and so on, and the way the traditional Lean would work is you go through this exercise and you get rid of all the wastes and you go through cycles where you get rid of the waste and eventually you can put a pen together. What we did is, after the first iteration, we just designed a process by which to put a pen together. Two or three iterations to perfect it and at the end it was perfect. I mean perfect in the sense, optimal in the sense that you really couldnt make it any better than it was given the assignment and the resources. Now, Ive taken. If you read my chapter in Path for Managers the new version on the new Lean, Ive taken all the wastes and turned them in to instead of things to get rid of, things to put into place. One of the lines I think youll get a kick out of Joe is that I wrote in that chapter is that, "you cannot put traditional Lean in a start-up new company. First, you have to screw it up and then you can put Lean in."Joe: I highlighted that in the Kindle version.Robert: What were looking at is how to create processes that, in fact, are efficient, have economy of means, make a lot of sense. I mean some of the things from traditional Lean I really like are minimizing steps, are minimizing handoffs, some of the ergonomics, where you put A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  15. 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems things physically, where were also looking at economy of transportation, at economy of scale, and economy of production, and workload capacity relationships. In a way Lean is very much fixing, fixing, fixing versus designing. If you throw away the current process and you rethink it all in terms of the outcome you want but have a really good fix about where you are which will give you the current process. Okay, current process is current reality. And heres where we want to be. You can rethink the whole process and bypass a whole number of steps. Well, let me give you an example. I work with one company and this is a car dealership. Once a week for 45 minutes Im in a meeting with their service department guys doing design work. Thats it, right, 45 minutes over the last two years, same set of folks, and same number of folks. In fact, I think they have a few places they need to fill, and they have increased their volume. And just that one group alone, you have to remember this is the garage at the service department; they have increased their efficiency in revenues $500,000 a year, same group of folks. Thats just from little iterations every week improving. . .designing what theyre doing? First of all, Im describing where were really looking at the outcome were after, where are we now, how do we move from here to there. The other thing I really like about the notion of Lean is that its grass roots. That its people around the table really working it out who are there close to the situation and another, I know you A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  16. 16. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems read this in my chapter. But a real irony about traditional Lean is the whole black belt and sensei deal. Because Lean is really designed to be grass roots rather than expertise and certainly, at first there needs to be some guidance or some facilitation but the notion of some kind of master coming in really misses the power of the original quality circles and all the Deming stuff that made it so powerful.Joe: I think the real true Lean people that Im familiar with believe that there is that hierarchy that has developed in six-sigma.Robert: Theres one more thing that happens. Weve seen it with the quality movement as well is that originally it was designed to be mindful. You know people sitting around thinking. Then the forms really are designed to be mindless so you dont have to think, you fill out the form. It really takes away from the actual creativity that we need around the room. Ill tell you, its very impressive of how creative people are when given the opportunity to think about how to better a system.Joe: I think you bring a point when youre talking about the service guys. Everybody is always worried about failing and major changes. But when you do everything at the place of work and at Gemba as we call it in Lean, changes are all minor. Theres not a drastic change that when you do fail that the whole company structure drops down. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  17. 17. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsRobert: No, youre not betting the farm, but on the other hand, let me give you some real life examples that this service group had to think about: When to have cars come in? How to talk to people about when to pick them up? How to designate who/what mechanic should be working on what difficulty of job? You know theres a lot of scheduling stuff. There are a lot of systems that needed to be in place to communicate with the customers. Then theres the relationship between the people taking the phone calls in the reception area to the technicians. As Im mentioning some of these elements, you can see that it was not anything too elaborate. By the way, that includes bringing making sure the parts were there when the technicians needed them. We were creating a relationship between the parts department and the service department and these networks of relationships. They were just able to little by little by little design systems that accommodated the outcomes. Which, by the way, the outcomes included fixing the vehicle first time and having it really be right, having loaners available for the customers, having parts available for the technicians, and so on.Joe: I think you bring something up there that I want to touch upon is that I see where people want to, they want these customer experiences and start collaborating with customers and we talk about co- creation and open innovation, but unless that structure is already happening with a collaborative type of system within a company versus a normal command and control situation, unless thats happening internally is it possible to do externally? A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  18. 18. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Are you going to fail? Is that failure just sitting waiting to happen?Robert: The answer is no. Its not that its impossible. Its impossible to do it that way. Its also impossible to do it as grass roots from the standpoint of, management has to support it. It is one of the aspects of my latest version of “Path for Managers” that I emphasize because I saw it in abundance over the 12 years that I had written the first version to the second version was a lot of times it was the failure of leadership to support the kind of change efforts. Without their support, it wasnt going to go anywhere no matter how many people within the company wanted it. You cant drive it through grass roots and so theres a function of leadership, and so we always have to drive it up to the senior-most leader to make sure theyre, in fact, not only supporting it, but insisting upon it.Joe: If I want to have a collaborative structure externally, I need to have one internally first. It is the best way to do it.Robert: Yes, let me give you an even better, almost immediate, almost visceral example. When the CEO and the Executive team are not aligned, how do you expect anybody else in the organization to be aligned? Everybody take a real quick survey of the companies you know and love and notice how often, in fact, the senior team is not aligned. Youve got the Vice President of this going in that A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  19. 19. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems direction disagreeing with the Vice President of that and they have what Deming called their own little fiefdoms. Below them, everybody is supposed to self-organize into utopia.Joe: When you talk about your workshop and a structured approach to Lean, its a three-day workshop, its pretty intense I would imagine for three days. What does someone learn and what types of people come to it?Robert: Well, first of all, that workshop there was a prerequisite what you had to be, have done our four-day Fundamentals of Structural Thinking. So, all the folks that came had done that course, so they were familiar with structural thinking. Because that was important, they needed that to be able to really go at the pace that we went. Just generally what we did was we compared traditional Lean to the structural approach with a new Lean. We experimented with both and saw which one was superior and people got their arms around it and every person went out ready to put it into place. Either some of them were consultants and said they were ready to put it into place in their clients businesses and organizations and some of them were practitioners; they were from companies, and they were ready to put it into place in their companies.Joe: Did they also have Lean experience or did a lot of them not have general Lean experience?Robert: I had everything from people who never did anything to black belts. By the way, all of them had all the people A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  20. 20. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems that had experience with Lean also had the typical frustration that people do.Joe: Does the new Lean follow Deming? I mean is it an extension of that or do you take a different direction than Deming?Robert: I dont know that. It doesnt follow Deming; it is influenced heavily by Deming and Demings notion. By the way, I think Deming was probably the senior-most wonderful innovator in this area and Id like to point out that he was a composer. Well, he was and Drucker was a musician. There is something about coming from music where you really understand in an extracurricular way how things are put together. So it does, and Im not just sort of saying this because Im a composer, but that what one learns as a composer actually has an impact on how you look at organizations because in some ways theyre very similar in terms of elements in relation to each other and how they work together. It relates to the statistical approach that Deming has for manufacturing in terms of minimizing variances and building in quality. So, you dont inspect it at the end. Its actually really built in. I think is quite extraordinary insight and Im totally in love with it. When people try to take quality and then put it to other realms of organizations where they were not looking at reproduced processes, like real management where you have to make decisions based on unexpected things and you cant minimize variance when youre, when youve got something new thats thrown at you that youve got to make a command decision about. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  21. 21. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems On the other hand, Deming really understood this principle of outcomes. Because he said that "Look you could really create the perfect buggy whip and it would be obsolete." So it wasnt simply minimizing the variances, it was also understanding the strategic outcomes that companies were after. And also the other thing is the kind of wisdom; Deming really understood the wisdom that the rank and file have and how we are not making great use of that wisdom, which we should be learning from each other all over the place. In the collaborative structures that were talking about now because of the ease of communication and everything, I think goes right along with what Deming always thought about just in a different time frame. But remember hes a real innovator. He wasnt just taking somebody elses system and following it. He was rethinking systems and so he was so in touch with what it meant and why it worked, how it worked. . .Joe: I have to ask you, how did a composer ever get involved in Lean and structural analysis?Robert: To make the long story short. I was teaching composition at the New England Conservatory and I created this particular approach to teach that and I wondered if I could use that approach for non- compositional aspects of life-like people creating things. I created a course around Boston and I had teachers teaching this course and so on and some of the folks at MIT Sloan School of Management took the course. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  22. 22. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems The next thing I know I got invited to join a company, to form a company with Peter Senge, Charlie Keefer, and myself called Innovation Associates. And then thats when I really learned about system dynamics and the great work thats going on a Sloan School of Management and got very interested. The system dynamics and structural dynamics are very similar. But they’re like cousins. Theyre not identical and one is more from a compositional process and one is from a systemic process which originally was maybe from electronics. There was just great co-collaboration there. At first, I was only interested in organizations from the standpoint of its a place that people create and so I wanted to help them be more effective but then I started to understand the organization itself as a structure and started to see that success did not always succeed and understood, came to understand, what was causing that.Joe: Is there something you would like to add that maybe I didnt ask?Robert: One is the whole notion of customer value and trying to drive everything through customer value. I really think thats ridiculous. There are some things that certainly, where customer value would be the organizing principle but there are other things, which are not, like infrastructure stuff or things that are under the hood that have no impact at all on the customer. I mean you can always argue that they can, but you A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  23. 23. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems have to get so indirect and convoluted that it becomes not practical because youre no longer in touch with the real motivation. So there are other reasons to perfect systems other than customer value. If you start to divide the word world into customer value or waste, you miss so much. I think thats another limitation. I do have respect for traditional Lean; I just think that its really in many ways obsolete and is based on some wrong premises, but I certainly love its intention and it often can be tremendously successful.Joe: If someone is interested in finding out more, how can they contact you?Robert: Two places to go. One is our website, which is www.robertfritz.com and the other is an online course that we do with a partner company, and that is a great thing, by the way, its a personal on-line course, lessons every day, me on video; it goes for over three months, very powerful, and thats www.wisepond thats W-I-S-E-P-O-N-D dot com. Of course, all of my books are on Amazon and all of them except for one are in Kindle. Also, if you come to our website, youll see other things that we offer CDs and so on. So I also write a blog every week on the Wisepond site and we have a pretty active Facebook page which is Robert Fritz Inc.Joe: I would like to thank you very much Robert. This podcast will be available on the Business901 blogsite and the Business901 iTunes store. A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901
  24. 24. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Business901 Phone: 260-918-0438 Skype: Biz901 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: jtdager@business901.com Website: http://www.business901.com Twitter: @business901Joe Dager is president of Business901, a firm specializing inbringing the continuous improvement process to the sales andmarketing arena. He takes his process thinking of over thirtyyears in marketing within a wide variety of industries and appliesit through Lean Marketing and Lean Service Design.Visit the Lean Marketing Lab: Being part of this community willallow you to interact with like-minded individuals andorganizations, purchase related tools, use some free ones andreceive feedback from your peers. Marketing with Lean Book Series included in membership Lean Sales and Marketing Workshop Lean Service Design Workshop A New Approach to Lean – Robert Fritz Copyright Business901