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  1. 1. 1 Source File: Tim Pychyl-Procrastination Title: Tim Pychyl-Procrastination Ari: Now I’m speaking with Tim Pychyl, who is a professor at Carleton University in Ottawa Canada andhe isa specialistinprocrastinationsoTimthankyouverymuchfor speaking to me. Tim: My pleasure Ari but I don’t procrastinate, I just study it. Ari: Right! Exactly. So you are not a… I guess we could say you’re not a procrastination expert, you are just a procrastination enthusiast maybe? Tim: Of course I have procrastinatedinmylife andthere were periodsinmylife where itwas the bane of my existence like many people so I get it from the inside but there is some of my colleagues who say, “How could you study this? You don’t procrastinate.” Well, that’s because I have studied it enough now not to be able to do it. That’s a very good point. Ari: Now you said something before we started recording that I wish I was according and you promise to say it again so we were just talking about time and you said you had thought about that. Tim: Justthismorning,thisisn’tthe firsttime Ihad this thought but it just hit me profoundly todaybecause I wasgoingto do three or fourtasks thismorningandone of themhad to be moved and I thought to myself, “Time is the true zero-sum game” and in an existential sense you don’t know how much of it you’re going to get but you’re only goingto getso much and itis nota renewableresource thatway. Soit’salwaysa matter of how you chose to use your time which is the bottom line for me. Ari: Absolutely and that’s a really good launching point for this because one of the differentiators that I try to make with people when I am trying to help them be more efficient or I am trying to be more efficient, is that there is a difference between procrastinatinganddeferring.Soforme,deferringiswhenyouputtingsomethingoff to a time that you can actually more effectively deal with it whereas to me, and I am alwayshoping that your way to correct me on this thought but procrastination is really about sort of just pushing them under the rug because you don’t want to deal with them now and your sort of disassociating yourself with the tasks. Tim: I don’t have to correct you, you hit the nail on the head and in fact but the new graduate student who is going to be doing her research on this concept off active procrastination. There is some researchers so don’t agree with you would think that they found this active procrastinator who delays purposely and they call it active
  2. 2. 2 procrastinationwhichof course isan oxymoron. You’ve defined itcorrectly that there is deferral,there is intension updates, “Well, I’m going to put this off” it’s just better for me to do this later and then… And that’s a good thing, we do it every day. You have to. And then there is procrastination where you had an intention to do it, you know you shoulddoit now but as you put it so well, you’re pushing it under the rug because you don’t want to and really you don’t want to you want to feel good now, it’s that instant gratification thing. Ari: Yeah so before we even get into the nitty-gritty about procrastination, what got you interested in procrastination in the first place which is kind of funny question NSF I think? Tim: Yeah.WhenI didnot studyprocrastinationisa graduate studentalthough a lot of times I did it. But I did study other graduate students when I did my doctoral research. I actuallyspenttime studyingdoctoral studentsacrossmanydifferent departments and I was interviewingthemandtheywouldsaythings like,“Whatare you doing?”, They will say,“Oh, and kindof sittingaroundthe researchroomhere and yakand complainabout our work.” “Well what are you supposed to be doing?” “Well I am supposed to be working on my comprehensive exam.” “Well why aren’t you working on your comprehensive exam?” “I don’t know what to do.” “Well, why don’t you talk to your advisor about…” “I can’t let him know I am not doing anything.” And I thought to myself; there is a pathos here that is really thick. These are really intelligentpeople sayingreallysillythings.AndIwasstudyingpeople’sgoal pursuitand I was interested in how their goal pursuit predicted their well-being and what became painfully obvious to me was that what predicted our unhappiness were the things we said we were going to do and didn’t do in a timely way. So I realized that I wanted to move away from studying just goal pursuit to studying when our goal pursuit broke down and specifically procrastination. Ari: Rightokay.And thenhow didthat researchbegin though? What did you start to look at first?I guessthere isthe “how” and the “why” to procrastination. So what did you start with? Tim: We started with a paradox because I had a lot of students interested in this and so all my research isdrivenbymystudentsbutback inthe 90s one of the firstthings we did is we said,“It’sinteresting,peopleprocrastinatebecause youare gettingrid of something noxious.” You are thinking, “I don’t want to do that, I’d rather have fun instead.” And yet when we looked at the little bit of research that shows out there procrastination seems to be correlated with negative emotions and we’re thinking, “Why is that?” If you’re procrastinating, shouldn’t you be feeling good? So we actually did some experience sampling studies where we put pagers on people and try to catch them at the moment there procrastinating, not just this general trait sort of procrastination
  3. 3. 3 where youprocrastinatedall the time but if your procrastinating right now how do you feel? Because we wanted to understand, “Did you feel better when you procrastinated?”Andlow andbehold,the negative emotionswere nolonger correlated withprocrastinationwhenyou’re actuallyprocrastinating but then again there weren’t strongpositive emotionseitherparticularly because there was when emotion that was dominant and that was guilt. So that’s some of the first studies we did with some of these experience sampling studieswhere we trytoget thatwhat people were feelingandthinkingwhile they were procrastinating.Andsince thenwe’ve done lotsof differentstudies and for people who are listening and are interested, they could just go to and you will find all the kind of research we do. Ari: Okay so that’s an interesting thing to me too is that guilt issue and this is not just obviously with procrastination, this is with dieting or with how you act in your relationship withyoursignificantother.There’sall this guilt but it again it doesn’t seem to constantlychange.Itseemslike people whoprocrastinate…It’salmostclinical; that it getsto thispointwhere people justcan’tmake themselves do things anymore because theygetintothismode of procrastination. And also how does that tie-in for you with… Is not really a questionable concept that in an eight hour day, the average worker is really doing like two hours of work. Is that active procrastination or is that something else? Tim: No, that can just be procrastination. That can be what lots of people call laziness, irresponsibilityIsuppose butitcostshuge amountof moneytobusinesseswhenpeople waste time like that when they are not on task. There is a lot of sense of agency there. But let me go back to guilt. Absolutely we stew in our own juices with procrastination and the guilt is really like a thermometer of what… Really researchers and social psychology called cognitive dissonance. Classical cognitive dissonance, you have an intention and then your behavior is not matching that intention so the gap between your intentions in action that defines procrastinationleadstothisdissonance.Andasyousaid,we don’tknow anything about it, it doesn’t seem to motivate things; well it could, that would be the ideal thing; you change your behaviorwhichmeansyougetgoingbutinsteadwe have lots of strategies to reduce dissonance. Like we dismiss it, “Oh, it’s not that important.” Or, “I will feel more like ittomorrow.”Or,“I workwell underpressure.”Andall of these thingsare said so that we can feel better about ourselves, we are trying to reduce the guilt. Now we are never completely unable to escape our self-deception that way. We do a prettygoodjob of it and theymighteven use substances; we might even have a couple of beers and other substance of choice, anything to get away from that guilt. But it is
  4. 4. 4 paradoxical to me why we become our own worst enemy and that was keeps me studying procrastination. Ari: And you said you keep studying it because of that paradox. So what can people do about it or what have you found to be most effective ways for people to overcome procrastination? Tim: Those are twodifferentthings.We canbecome verystrategicandmake little babysteps evenwhenwe haven’tgrappledwiththe wholethingbutI am going to start with what I think is ultimately what we have to do then I will start with some techniques you can use right away. Ultimately you have to come down to what I said earlier, what you thoughtyouwantedme to repeatwhichis,“Time isa zero-sumgame.”And how we are choosing to do it To me,at its existentialroots,procrastinationis not getting on with life itself, like it’s a horrible thing. This is your life, what are you going to do with it? To me if when you wake up and open your eyes to that, to your own sense of agency, then you start makingchoicesandthenyoudon’tstew in your own juices anymore. You either do the thingthat’sthe next thing to do or you just abandon it. You say, “I am taking it right off my list.”Andithas a veryZenlike qualitythere andthe notion of the master is with the studentwhoisseekingenlightenmentandthe student or novice says, “How do I do it?” And the master says, “Did you finish eating your rice?” And he says, “Okay, then wash your bowl.” AndhonestlyAri,itcomesdown,thatisprofoundwhatI thinkhasto happen in order to deal with procrastination. Now that’s a tall order in a sense because by even using the storyit has some sense of wisdomorenlightenmentattachedtoitbutI do thinkthere is some truth in that. Now along the way you can do lots of tricks and techniques and I think that’s what mindfulness, practice and the meditation of any sort brings things to you; you act as if you had this enlightenment and one day you realize that it is the practice. But for me it alwayscomesdowntojustgetting started. So once I make the intention, I have to recognize that I’m not going to feel like it when the time comes. That’s a big myththat I’m actually going to feel like it. So first of all I think, “Okay, I’m just going to getstarted.I am not thinkingaboutthe whole task,it’snotthe Nike thing of “Just do it” it’s“justget started”.Because we have found in our research that once we get started, it changes ourperceptionof the task even our early research with the pagers; once the studentsactuallygotdowntothe taskat handtheydidn’tsaythingslike, “Gee, I’m glad I waited until the last minute because I work so much better under pressure.” They never said that. They say things like, “This isn’t as bad as I thought. I wish I had started earlier, I could do a much better job.”
  5. 5. 5 So we know that just getting started is central. And that’s an emotional thing and a bit of a behavioral strategy but a cognitive strategy might be; let’s get away from the goal intentions like, “I’ll do that task on the weekend” and that the task is a bit poorly defined and the weekend is really poorly defined. And get down to really precise implementation intentions like, “When I finish my coffee on Saturday morning, I’m going to do this part of that task and define it precisely. “In situation X, I will do behaviour Y achieve subgoal Z.” So if you can add that into your life, just moving from broad goal intentions to specific implementation intentions you’re going to have a whole leapforwardevenif you haven’t gone to the point where you’ve kind of woken up and smelled the coffee and said, “Hey, this is my life! What am I going to do with it today?” Ari: Right, okay. And I am very, very much on board with what you’re saying. So for something you admit is like a large project, I always make a joke about this but it’s actuallyverysad, isthat I’ve seenthisnow seventimesonaclients’to do list which was “Write book”. Tim: Yes of course.Andwithmy students,whenIaskedone of my graduate students, “What are you doing?” And they say, “Working on my thesis” I know they are doing nothing because it’s too big and broad to say that they are doing anything. If they say to me, “Oh, I am strugglingwiththatsectionyouwere talkingaboutthe other day where I was trying to make the transition from so-and-so’s research to my ideas.” I think; oh, okay you are doing something. So writingabook,it’sgood,it’sa veryhighordermeaningful goal butwe have toalways juggle in our lives, manageability and meaning. Meaningless things aren’t going to get done because theyare meaningless.Thingsthatare not manageable aren’t going to get done evenif theyare meaningfulso you’ve got to always keep this balance in mind. So writinga bookisverymeaningful,connected toone of my core values; what is the next step? What are actually going to today or in the next hour? And that’s where you get into the implementation intension. Ari: Right, okay. So then the implementation intention is good in itself of course but on a systematic or on a logistics level, what do you tell people? Is it break it down so you know what the next step is? Tim: Yeah.That’s beensaidasa motherhoodstatement around procrastinationforyears and thentheythink they have a time management problem but to they don’t really have a time managementproblem.Veryfew people have time management problems. Some of the research we’ve done continually shows that procrastinators aren’t broken somehow. They don’t really estimate time badly, they don’t manage their emotions reallywell.SoIthinkthat you can break down your task but then you come to that first part of the task andyou have that strongemotional reaction.Well, you have a six-year-
  6. 6. 6 old inside of you. I have a six-year-old almost 7 running around my house and I know him very well. And I would say, “Alex, it’s time to make your bed.” And he will say, “I don’t feel like it, I don’t want to.” And I would say, “Alex, I did not ask how you felt. I love you but that is not my question, it’s time to make your bed.” And so we have that six-year-old alive and well inside of us. We think that saying, “I don’t feel like it” is an explanation for not doing something. And if we stand back from that and realize how silly it is, it’s kind of enlightening in itself. Ari: Thisis greatbecause whatI have sort of hit on me a few times or several times actually is I am a parent of three small boys. My wife stays at home, I work at home. So we are bothhere on out withthe kids and we have a 2 ½ year old and a twin 14 month old and theyare all boys.AndwhatI tell people alotis;it doesn’tmatter if I am tired, it doesn’t matterif I am sick,itdoesn’tmatterif I am throwing up in the toilet, I still have to feed someone; somebody still has to be changed, somebody still has to be stopped from fallingoff a countertop. You just have to do it. And that’s okay and that’s great actually but it doesn’t matter if you don’t feel like it, that is totally irrelevant. Tim: Yep. And if you can bring that to there on most of our lives we would be much better off.Infact we see a lot of procrastinationinstudentsandwe see itinotherplacesin life of course butthose people; there’s an old adage “Give a job to a busy person.” It’s like theyare alreadyinmotion.Andalot of that too isthat theyrecognize that,“Idon’t have a lot of time” Another view on this is something that some people call the unscheduled and it’s a reallyinterestingwaytothinkaboutyourlife,isthatwhenwe thinkabout next week. If I said to you, “Ari could you do this with me today?” You are liable to think, “No, I am too busy.” I say to you, “Ari, next month will you do this?” Most likely we are going to say yes and in fact there is a lot of interesting research about present self and shoot future self and how we really do treat future self like a stranger; I don’t care, that’s future self, that’s future self’s problem. Ari: Future Homer, from The Simpsons. Tim: That’s it, you’ve got it, “Man, I don’t envy that guy.” Homer just nails it so beautifully there. Our brains actually activate differently when we think about present self and future self. If I think about a stranger, I will treat future self more like a stranger. All that aside, the unscheduled is take a blank calendar for next week and I fill in all of the thingsthat I reallyhave todo, right down to the nitty-gritty; like brushing my teeth and showering because it takes time. Even today I have to run to a vet appointment afterour chat today andI thoughtto myself,“Gee,Ibettershowerbeforethisbecause I have to leave as soon as we’re done.” So all that has to go in there and then you get a more realisticattitude of whatyoureallyhave available forthese othertasks and it kind of putsyouin the headspace muchlike the busyparentswhosaid,“Itdoesn’t matter if I
  7. 7. 7 am throwing up or if I am feeling sick, I’ve still got people to care for.” And if you actually look at all the things that are going on in your life and you get other tasks thrownin and you think, “Gee, I’ve got to do that right now, right then” because that’s it, that’s all the time I have I can’t get into this wishful thinking. So I think what’s happenedasa parentiswhat happenstomany of us is we realize, “Well, I have to step up here”. Now what I want to see people do is to step up to own their own lives even before they are taking care of somebody else. Ari: Right, exactly and of course we can’t apply that to everything we do but in a way, we can because if you are doing work that’s meaningful to you that you care about then how is that not the most important thing? How is that not the essence of your being? Somebodycouldsaylike,“Oh,I’m justrecordingapodcastwithyou rightnow, it’s just a podcast.” But to me, this is what I do. The conversation we’re having right now is the value that I get and sharing it with you. So it’s integral to my life. Tim: Yeah, but even they problem with that is somebody will say, “Well, lucky Ari, he has found something that is meaningful to him and I don’t do meaningful work.” But that doesn’t matter either. You could look at finding meaning in it and I think that is really important because any job worth doing is a job worth doing well. But you could also just look at it as that, “Okay, this is my task in front of me; I had finishedeatingmyrice,I’mgoing to wash my bowl and I’m going to do it right now. I’m going to get it done now so I can get on to other things.” Even Victor Frankel who spent time in a Nazi concentration camp; when he wrote his autobiography he wrote about procrastination; it blew me away because I thought, “He’s got other important things to say here.” But what he gets like every major world religion gets with the notion of sloth is that wasting time is a sin against life itself because it’s so precious like there’s nothing more precious you’re going to get than time.Andsoif youare doingsomethingthengetitdone.AndthisiswhatVictor Frankel writesandI will goback to whathe sayswhichis,“I have learnedtodo the difficult jobs firstbecause that’swhenIhave the energy.”Ihave learned to get things done so I have time for the important things in life. So let’sgo back to your example of being a parent; not only do you realize you have to care for your kids whether your head is in the toilet or not but that you don’t want to put off your stuff during the day and then look at your children later and say, “I don’t have time to play, I have to work” because that is important stuff in life. So even if the task at handisn’tintrinsicallymeaningful like washingyour bowl after your rice, getting it done so that you can get on with the other things that really do reflect your values and your agency, that’s why you do it quickly, that’s why you do it right then, that’s what you don’t stew in your own juices.
  8. 8. 8 Ari: Rightand that’sthe thingif somethingisanobstacle inyourway like washing the bowl, and we keep usingthisasan example of course.Butif it’san obstacle to five seconds of your life wasjustsomethingthatwill pileupandthe dishes will pile up and you have to deal with it later, that later is going to piss you off and you are not going to sleep well and you are irritated and actually it’s a butterfly effect in some ways. Tim: It is. It seemslike asillyexample because we’ve taken the same story but quite frankly but I am sure there’slistenerswithdishes sitting on their counter because they said, “I don’tfeel like it.”Andjustwhatyoudescribedhappensisthatthe next day, not only do the whole pile of them,theyare really hard to us because everything is really stuck on, it’sdriedon.What was a two second job becomes a much longer job and so if I go back to my story with my son when he told me, “I don’t feel like making my bed.” I said to him,“HeyAlex,you know what? I’ll give you a dollar if you can count to 10 before I got your bed made but you have to count one 1000, two 2000, he said, “all right.” So now I have got this teachable moment; he is motivated externally by the thought of a dollar and he starts to countand I make the bed.He doesn’tgettosix,the bed is made and he learnssomethingdeeplyimportant.Youspendmore time complainingandmoaningand thinking about a task than what a lot of them take to get done and if you can get them done inthe timelywaythey don’tbuild thatchaos,that butterflyeffect that really does happen when we let these little things pile up in our heads. Ari: So are you familiar with motivational interviewing at all? Tim: No. Ari: Okay so this is a psychological concept, I have recently learned about this but the makingthe bedexample isagoodexample for that and I heard of this and I loved it. So with the child example, you want them to make their bed, what motivational interviewingwouldhave todoisask twoquestionsandthe first question is… My oldest son’s name is Ben so, “Ben, on a scale of 1 to 10; 1 being totally not ready, I don’t want to do it at all and 10 being I am really excited you want to do it right now, how would you rate yourself as far as your willingness to make your bed?” Well a flippant child, “Well,Iam at 2 dad.” Andso thenthe secondquestionis,“Okay,whydidn’tyousayyou were a 1?” Whichbasicallyforcesthemtojustifyandput it into their own thoughts and their own terms like basically sort of gives them some perspective on that. And apparentlyit’s veryrare forsomeone tosay they are a 1 in that situation because that’s just being ridiculous. I really like that and I think that that in a way brings you back to your presentself,it’slike well, it’sthatthe matterof thenor now,it’sreallylike why am I not ready or am I actually really ready and I might as well actually do it. But to have anotherexample foryouwhichthe washingof the dishes is a great one but thisisa personal one thatI findhappensa lot is every time I go into the bathroom, one of ourguestroom or the mainbathroomin our house andmaybe I am goingto washmy
  9. 9. 9 hands,maybe I am goingto the bathroom,butif there islittle orno toiletpaperleft, it’s very, very easy to just walk away and say, “I don’t want to go change… I don’t want to go geta roll of toilet paperdownstairsand change that.” But of course, your future self has to deal withthattime that yougo to the bathroomand you’re sittingthere andthen there is no toilet paper. Tim: Yeah.And I never do that and I can get kind of inpatient with my own partner who will make choiceslike thatlike the dishsoap is almost done, not completely done, it would be a square to that but not to refill it then when you actually have a minute like your future self is not under crunch; you do not know what future self is going to be facing. Presentself really does have a moment to do that but present self says, “No, I want to do something else, I don’t want to do that.” Andthe visceral reaction“Idon’twant to do that” isworthexploringbecause whatdoes it mean?Like whatishe goingtodo instead?Are you really having that much fun doing whateverelse itis?Andif youcan justgetintothe habitof doingthingsright away what happens is that you are allowed to be spontaneous later without guilt because you’ve got everything, all your ducks are in a row. But most of the time people come back to me and say, “Look, who would want to be as uptight as that? Always doing things on time,procrastinationismyspontaneity.”AndIsay, “It’s actually just the opposite. Your procrastination weighs on you like the world and it’s like a monkey on your back and whenreal freedomoffersitself toyou,youcan’tbecause you’ve put yourself behind an eight ball.” So I love yourexample,it’samundane one butI thinkit’s worth exploration of, “Why is it whenwe lookatthe simple tasklike,I’ve gottogo getanotherroll of toiletpaper” we have that visceral, “I don’t feel like it”? I think it’s hardwired into us somehow. Ari: Andagain,not to overtrivialize thisbut it’snottome but inthat situation where I don’t wantto… we keepourtoiletpaperinthe basement basically, soit’sjustone floordown. It’sreallynota big deal but I don’t want to go get that roll but when I do I actually feel, as little as that is, I feel like I accomplished something in a way. Tim: Andyou do!Anda little bitof progress,we know thisfromresearchthat a little progress on a goal fuelsourwellbeing.Andactually this is one of the few places where we have seenupwardspiral of our well-beingbecausethatlittle teenysuccess,astrivial asit may seem spawns the next thing, spawns the next thing. Now is not infinite, there is no panacea here but it is the opposite of the downward spiral of procrastination and guilt. It’s just making the right choice. Ari: Right, absolutely. So the last question I would like to ask and I am so excited to hear your answeractuallyis;whatare your top three personal tipsforbeing more effective?
  10. 10. 10 Not necessarily overcoming procrastination, it may be but what are your top three things for being more effective in your day? Tim: That’s a good question; not many people ask me that question. And I am a planful person so one of my first is that I use this sort of the day timer, of course it’s on my computerandon my iPhone andiPadandI actually color-code all of the different parts of mylife like within my work life I’ve got research teaching and administration, those are different colors. I’ve got personal things, recreation, kid related things and consulting and book related things and all those different colors. And so I can do a forensicauditof myweek.Ican lookat my weekandI can lookfor how much recreation didI get in?Was there a lotof time withthe kids?What’sthe balance betweenresearch and administration? So one of my practicesisto be planful andalsodoa forensicauditconstantly;amI living the life I want to live? Am I building time for recreation that I want? Am I making time for the balance between teaching and research that I might want? All of those things and it is such a very good tool for me so that’s one of them. And that’s at the planning cognitive level. The most importantpart forme isthe affective part about feeling like it. I am a big one for building good habits and routines so that things become routinized so they don’t take mental energy but it takes mental energy to get there. Everything from making flossing my teeth a habit that I can’t miss still doing situps and push-ups and strength exercises for my core. So even if I don’t do an aerobic exercise, I have always got that other core strength. And honestly even though I do my push-ups and situps and back exercises every day before Ishower,that’smyimplementation intention. In situation X before I can step in the showerandget downand dothose core exercisessoIhave got that implementation intensionand my visceral reaction is, “I don’t feel like it, not today.” So I always battle that with “Tim, just get started.” Anda really mundane example of thatisI wasdoing push-ups and back exercises really effectively but I was skipping my situps and so to break that ice only had to do was go frombeingonmy kneeswhichisthe way I do my back exercises, all I had to do was roll overon my back.I didn’tthinkaboutdoing the situpsIjustsaid,“Whenyou finishthisin situationX,whenyourbackexercisesare done,rollover on your back.” And now I am in a position where I might as well do those situps. You see where I am very strategic because youhave to findwhatthe finisor the wedge isforyouto be able to reallybuild habits you want. So for me, that’s super important so that some people we look at me and say,“Wow, I really admire your self-discipline.” And I think, “You know, it’s not so much self-discipline, it’s just really building really good habits. It maybe take a bit of discipline to build those habits but once you own them, boy, like becomes so easy.”
  11. 11. 11 So the first one is the planfulness. The next one is creating those habits but always I guessthe bottomline toall of itis forme isjustget started.I’ll face anything and I’ll go, “I don’tfeel like it,Idon’twantto.” I am nodifferentfromanyotherpersonthatI know. I am not the most super motivated man in the world but I do know what my goals are and so when I get to the point where I make an intention and I have that visceral reaction; “I don’t want to do this, I hate this”, I don’t know what I am talking about really, I’m just feeling it. I say, “Just get started” and that has changed my world. Ari: That’s awesome!That’sreallyawesome.Sowe are goingto have linkstoall yourstuff in the show notes but where is the best place for people to find out more about you? Tim: As I mentioned in your past interview, I mentioned that when you asked me about my research and there is so much in there. But if you go there you won’tjustfindmyresearch,youwill findalinktomy blogon psychologytoday.Soif you wantto read a lot aboutprocrastinationresearch,Ihave justbeenwritingaboutthatfor years. I just read research and summarize it and try to find and take away points. AndI am like you I like to podcast. I started back in 2005 and I am an on-again off-again podcaster but there is a lot there. Ari: I know, I love your podcast. Tim: Will good thanks very much Ari. And they range from interviews to personal stuff so if you go to, you will find all of that. Ari: Wonderful wellTimthankyou somuch. Thisis beenareallywonderfulconversation for me and I really appreciate your time. Tim: Me too. Most of the time Ihave beenstaringat your handsome face here and you have such a warm… It’s a nice picture of you even though it’s just one of those snapshots from a computer camera but it felt like I met you so that’s a nice thing. Ari: Well thank you very much. Tim: Alright, take care! ***End***