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May 2017 edge talks feel to think the power of empathy in film to change behaviour and systems 201705

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May 2017 EdgeTalks Feel to think the power of empathy in film to change behaviour and systems

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May 2017 edge talks feel to think the power of empathy in film to change behaviour and systems 201705

  1. 1. EMay 2017 EdgeTalks Feel to think the power of empathy in film to change behaviour and systems 201705n, 15.05.2017 JANET WILDMAN: OK, good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us this morning, this Friday morning. It is 5 May and we’re going to be on the Edge Talk this morning. We are going to be talking about Feel to Think: The Power of Empathy in Film to Change Behaviour and Systems and this session is going to be led by Chris Godwin. So joining in today and beyond. Now, we would really like this to be as participative and engaging as possible. We know it's going to be an exciting, very exciting session. So if you are joining, why not join us in the chat room, tell us what you are thinking and what you are feeling, how the session is resonating with you. And you can ask questions to the presenter, that would be perfectly fine. And please tweet using the hashtag #EdgeTalks and the Twitter handle @Sch4Change and @HorizonsNHS. So let's keep all the activity going. Let's get our voices heard and also let’s try and bring in other people who haven't joined the session today. So, my name is Janet Wildman. I'm a part-time associate with Horizons. I will be the chair this morning. We are also joined by Leigh Kendall. She is going to do the Twitter monitor this morning. And in the chat room and helping us with any technical difficulties is Louis Warner. So you have a great team working with you today, supporting the session. So without any further ado, I want to introduce you to Chris Goodwin. He is the director of Inner Eye Productions. And he comes from a journalist background. His interest is in how we can use film to understand behavioural change and NHS systems, as well as tackle below the surface and hard to reach issues that are limiting the performance of organisation, teams and leaders. He has worked with (unknown term) NHS foundation and he has produced a really interesting film, Barbara’s Story, which is a series of change dramas around dementia. You can contact him at @innereyeprod and I'm looking forward to hearing more about his exciting work and learning from this session. So over to you, Chris. CHRIS GODWIN: Great, thanks for that (inaudible) introduction. So basically, has Janet said, I'm the creative director and the owner of Inner Eye Productions. I was formerly the creative director of White Boat Television and films that you're going to see today are the films that I made with White Boat Television. I have just literally just set up my production company, Inner Eye Productions to specialise in this work in behaviour change dramas. Now, Janet gave you a brief introduction to me and my background, but just to kind of give you a bit more detail, yes, my background is in journalism. I then went to work with the BBC. I worked for the BBC for 11 years, mainly working as a producer director of factual programs. 1
  2. 2. From there, I worked mainly in the advertising in the corporate films sector. And it is while working in the corporate films sector that I acquired the specialism in behaviour change dramas in the health sector. In the first… What started me on this journey was a film called Barbara's Story, which was sort of mentioned in the introduction. This was a film that was commissioned by the guys in St Thomas's Hospital that they were looking to do was they were looking to change behaviour and attitudes to dementia patients, but also elderly patients within the Trust. They had a very clear brief. They wanted to really make a big impact through the use of film. There wanted to, people to go on an emotional journey with the film and really enable them to reflect on their own practice. The other thing they were very clear about within the brief was they wanted it to be a drama, which was an interesting and bold part of the brief, as I think, (inaudible) drama and I think as people would automatically go for, being a documentary based film. So we worked very closely with dementia team with the guys at St Thomas's to basically create a character, but also to create a story line as well. The character we created was Barbara Rees. Her back story was that she was an ex-head teacher, she was in her early 80s and she had undiagnosed dementia. The story is very simple. She is going to a cardiology appointment. And we (inaudible) for somebody who has dementia, a journey to hospital can be very traumatic, can be very upsetting, can be very distressing. And within the film and within the encounters she has within the film, she experiences good and bad practice, but mostly bad practice, with one sort of notable exception. The film, the way the film was used was that it was made compulsory for all 12,000 staff at Guy’s and St Thomas’s to watch it. So straight from your HR through to porters, through to your consultants, everyone had to watch this film. And the forum in which the film was going to be watched was in the lecture theatres at Guy’s and St Thomas’s. So you had 300 people attending the sessions to watch the film. So it was quite a commitment for the Trust to get all those people together and inspired to do this and be part of this, the film and the behaviour change that the film was hoping to elicit. The way that it worked was the film was showed in the sessions and then afterwards, it was opened up debate and discussion and reflection on the film and what people felt as a result of watching the film. And it made a massive difference. You know, research by South Bank University demonstrated there was significant cultural shift in the hospital. There was a move to more compassionate care of patients, dementia patients and elderly patients. And ultimately, there was… Barbara became word for good behaviour. Not good behaviour, compassionate care and doing the good and right thing. So it was a really big success. We kind of met the brief, excelled the brief in terms of trying to change behaviour there. And what I want to do now is I want to show you a film that we did. This is an interview with Eileen Sills talking about the film and talking about the impact that it had. I’m going to hand over to Louis who is now going to play the film for me. (Video plays) 2
  3. 3. EILEEN SILLS: We wanted to create something that nobody would ever forget. We wanted to create something where people felt they needed tissues and very emotional while they watched. We don't want to deliberately take people cry… CHRIS GODWIN: So there is a line at the end there which says, "Barbara's Story will continue,” and that sort of… Sorry, it kind of ages that film. Because what happened after we made the film, we were then commissioned to make a further five films which followed Barbara as she descended deeper and deeper into dementia and obviously, she dies at the end, in episode six. And we sort of touch lots of different issues in terms of her patient pathway along the way. So I think it got the sense of the impact that it has very, very soon after the project was completed in the Trust. But I think what is really, really interesting about this project and one thing that we never, never expected was that actually, the film and the series of films that followed it would lead to tangible changes within the Trust. So, as the company, we met brief. We'd made a film that reached out to hearts and minds and made people think differently about how they interact with patients with dementia and elderly patients as well. What we hadn't anticipated was that there would be other things that went on which weren’t to do with frontline staff, were actually to do with management and leadership. So the first happened, and it was mentioned by Eileen in that clip, was that the porters started, as a result of the young, started trying to push their wheelchairs forward as opposed to pulling them back. This was the result of the scene of the film where Barbara was being pulled in the corridor in a wheelchair, being pulled backwards. And we depict how disorientating, upsetting and distressing that can be for a dementia patient, to be pulled backwards. And so the porters took it upon themselves to start trying to push the patients forward rather than pulling them backwards. The problem being that the wheelchairs are not designed to be pushed forward, they are designed to be pulled backwards. And this led to Eileen and her team to start reflecting on well, why have we got wheelchairs that only pull backwards? Maybe we should have wheelchairs that push forwards. And as a result of that, Eileen got rid of the wheelchairs that pull backwards and now have wheelchairs that push forward instead. And so that is a classic example there of bottom-up change. Staff feeling moved by the story of Barbara to really want to make a difference for their patients. And in a way… And in doing so, putting pressure on the leadership and management to do something different. And that could only be achieved by really walking in the shoes of the patient, walking in the shoes of the dementia patient, and understanding their experience through the power of empathy, and also through the power of film as well. The other thing that happened as well was that… Sorry, Louis, we’ll just go back one from there. Sorry, we just slipped through one. Yeah. The other thing that happened was that the reception areas were reconfigured. And this was a result as the short bit of the scene in that film I just showed you where Barbara is shown to be very upset that she is trying to interact with the receptionist, but the receptionist gets distracted by the phone. 3
  4. 4. She feels ignored at a time when she need compassion, at a time when she needs warmth. She is confused, she is distressed and she is reaching out and she doesn't get anything back from the receptionist because they are distracted by the phone. So basically, Eileen and her team decided well, why don't we start to reconfigure our reception areas so that we have a receptionist that is dedicated to the patient and we have somebody that is dedicated to the phone? So there isn't an issue where there is a distraction going on there. So she’s moved towards reconfiguring some of the reception areas at Guy’s and St Thomas’s. The other significant thing that happened was nothing to do with the final product of the film, watching the film. It was actually to do with the process of making the film in itself. In one of the later episodes of Barbara's Story, we depict a nurse sitting on a bed and holding Barbara's hand. And in the edit, the nurses from Guy’s and St Thomas’s were saying, “We can't have that because that is against infection control.” And then a discussion sort of broke out from that in the discussion was around well, what is the best thing for that person at that particular time? Is this infection control or is that compassion? And actually, it was decided that compassion is probably the best thing. So that scene was kept in to the final edit. And that is kind of the really interesting sort of basis, the thing we weren’t really expecting, that as a result, the scene was kept in an infection control policy was now under review at Guy’s and St Thomas’s to kind of, you know, think differently about it. And that's really… Louis (inaudible). What we've got there is… This comes back to the title of this talk, the feel to think. So by walking in the shoes of Barbara, walking in the shoes of a patient, we are able to offer an emotional connection to a patient and to the patient pathway in a way that you could never achieve through charts, graphs, spreadsheets. That would never achieve that because it doesn't have the ability to really understand. You can see it on the piece of paper, but actually, what is actually the impact on the individual? What does it really feel like to be that patient? So by using film, by using empathy, you suddenly create this emotional connection with the individual and so that you can start thinking differently about things. You can start thinking differently about the process and about the impact of the processing systems you are using on that particular patient. So effectively, what I'm saying is that the film, by feeling and getting a feeling and emotion from the film, it is giving context you're thinking in a way that you can't get through dry data, spreadsheets, etc. There is obviously a place for that, but there is also a place for getting that emotional connection as well. So we kind of talk generally about empathy. There was a lot talk about empathy at the moment. It seems to be part of the zeitgeist at the moment in the health sector as well. Barbara's Story in itself has demonstrated the power of empathy in action. And you know, we are moving to the point where technology is going to take over diagnosis. I'm sure that is not that far away. So in terms of clinicians, are probably going to be thinking that their roles are slightly different. So it is not… It is about the diagnosis, but it’s going to be more about what is the treatment and how do you help that person with that diagnosis? And there is evidence to suggest that when clinicians and health workers, when they are more empathetic and more empathetic with their patients, it leads to better health outcomes. They get 4
  5. 5. better quicker. And evidence also shows that doctors and nurses who are empathetic tend to provide better care. So we need to find a way of channelling this empathy and that is where the power of film comes into play. We can channel it in that way. And the last thing on this point I would like to make is that these are not training films. We are not kind of showing people what to do. We are basically just using the power of storytelling to really enable people to reflect on their own lives, reflect on their own practice and think differently about others. Training films have… The danger with training films, when they start showing you and they start trying to teach you things, it takes you out of the moment. It takes out of the emotional connection. Like bad product placement in films. When you see bad product placement, you suddenly feel like you are being insulted rather than feel like you are emotionally engaged in the film. So Louis, if we could move onto the next one. What I want to show you now if this is a scene from Barbara's Story, which was in the final episode. I'll show you the clip and then afterwards, I'll explain it. The reason why I want to show it, it really is a very good example of this first person perspective and really understanding what it's like to be that patient. And in this particular case, it would be a patient with dementia who is in hospital for delirium because of a bad chest infection and who is distressed, confused and very, very upset. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: So just to talk you through that scene, first of all, she thinks that… Barbara thinks she is in hospital and she is having a baby. So the implication is that, you know, she is thinking she has regressed to her being in her late 20s, early 30s. And we understand that by the use of the baby sounds and then it becomes a lot clearer when we see her walking down the corridor and she sees her husband at the end of the corridor as a young man. So we suddenly feel the tragedy of the tragic situation she is in and how heartbreaking it is that, you know, she is living as if she was still a young woman, and is completely confused and upset by what she is seeing. But if you dissect that scene even more, there are some real earnings you can get from it. Why is Barbara seeing her husband at the end of the corridor? And it is because the doctor at the end of the corridor has got glasses just like her husband used to wear glasses, and that triggers the connection there. So there are sort of subtle things that you probably wouldn't pick up on first viewing, but when you dissect that in the research around it, then those things start to become clear. So hopefully, that sort of gives you a really good idea of how you could use this first person perspective in a really powerful, emotional way, but also with some really underlying learnings there an understanding of what it is to be that patient. 5
  6. 6. So the next thing I want to talk to about this research. The most important part of making these films, without a doubt, if the research. The research is so key because it is about really finding out and getting under the skin, what is the patient's experience? What are they really thinking? What is the commonality here between the patient’s experiences? So I will speak to as many patients and clinicians as possible when I am tackling these films. I want to talk to you about a film that I did after Barbara's Story called The Deafening Silence. This is a film that is very harrowing. It's a film about the experience of other going through a stillbirth. The film itself was based on a lot of interviews I did with lots of different mothers who had gone through this experience. And the commonality of experience, the thing that kept coming back was this sense of guilt. That in some way, they were responsible for the death of their child. And that became the central narrative to the film. And I'm going to show you a clip now. And it's quite harrowing and I would understand if you don't want to watch this particular clip. It is only 2 minutes long. But it will give you an idea of the power of this first person perspective and the insight that we got through the research that we did. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: Sorry, I don't know whether I made that clear. That was actually the trailer. That was not the whole film. The whole film was 20 minutes in duration. And Louis, are we onto another slide? The one after that? Here we go, so before going on to that one. What I'd like to do is going to show you now… There was lots of research done, which I'll kind of go on to, but let me quickly just go and show you straight away an interview that was done with the Royal College of Midwives about the impact of the film on midwives and how it has impacted their work on a day-to-day basis. So yeah, if we could just play this film. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: So I hope that gave you some insight into the impact it has had on midwives. I mean, there was so much research that was done, quite significant research that was done on the impact of it three months after it was shown in different hospitals. And it showed some quite significant advantages in practice. And if we could move onto the next slide from there? By what it also did is once again, we had this evaluation, which was demonstrating that behaviour change had happened as a result of the film, but what was really interesting is that once again, we had this system change, this kind of insight that the film had enabled… The inside had provided… Sorry, let me start that again. What the film had done is effectively give an emotional connection to the processes and systems that were in place. So lots of hospitals started talking about how they were changing their systems. So we've got a quote here that says, "As a direct result of the training, we are now involving more of our student midwives in bereavement care, to introduce them to the issues earlier and enhance their practice.” 6
  7. 7. So they got a bit of a process that has changed, bringing student midwives earlier into bereavement care, something that wasn't happening before. And then the next one, "All of our paperwork has been refreshed, reorganised and made readily available.” What's interesting about that is actually, the film doesn't really look at paperwork and how paperwork can go missing and how it can be destructive to patients. But by watching the film, having an emotional connection, it's almost recalibrates everything and you start thinking well, how can I improve practice? What can I do differently? And this is an example of that, simply reorganising the paperwork. So there is another example of feeling to think, giving an emotional context to enable you to think differently from a different perspective about how the systems and processes work to change an impact on the patients. But what was also really interesting about this film is that the empathy was not… The impact of the empathy was not literally on management and also on front-line staff. There was actually empathy for patients as well, which seems quite odd if you watch the film and how distressing it is. But the film was put on YouTube. To date, this had 300,000 views. It had 400 comments. If you read those comments, it’s from families and parents who have experienced a stillbirth talking about their experiences and saying thank you for making this film, it has given us a reason to talk about it. So it has kind of broken the silence around stillbirth of these people and enabled them to share it with family members who might understand what they've been through. And just by watching the film, it was, I'm not alone. This has happened to other people. I'm feeling the same things. That was an expected outcome. I mean, the other element to this film as well was that it got a lot of publicity in the media. We were on national TV, a number of national networks, and in the papers as well. And so it started raising awareness of the issue around stillbirth in general. Why do we have such bad record in stillbirths in this country? So it had a lot of impact, way beyond the initial brief. Louis, can we go on to the next slide? So I'm just going to… There's a couple more films I want to take you through. This one is called Seen and Heard. This was a film that commissioned by the Department of Health at the beginning of last year to raise awareness of child sexual abuse to health workers, healthcare workers. To basically give them the confidence and the courage to elicit disclosure of child abuse if they felt the child was being abused. And this is probably the most ambitious thing I've ever done. The aim is to reach 750,000 people across the NHS and the website as well, the online training package that went with it, is really slick and really, really well thought through. And it works brilliantly with the film, which takes you through the story of a young boy who is being abused by his older stepbrother. And it works in a number of levels. The story, you are taken through the learning from that first person perspective through three different chapters in a film and then ultimately, you watch the final chapter. So there is a sense of wanting to stick around to complete the learning because you want to find out what happened at the end. So I'm now going to show you a trailer for this film and then something I wanted to talk to you afterwards. So yeah, just play this trailer. 7
  8. 8. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: So what was interesting about the film I just showed you, which was a trailer in itself, was that the trailer became an impact film. So you've got the full film, which was about 18 to 20 minutes, I can't remember now. And then you've got the trailer which, as you can see, was 2 minutes long. And that works really well on social media. It's really something you can share quite easily in social media and direct people to training, but also just generally raise awareness of child sexual abuse. And that's how we now do it. We make a film, but we will also make a trailer that can go alongside it that can have a different life and can have a different purpose. So just some sort of statistics on the impact of Seen and Heard, so far, the research and evaluation has demonstrated some really, really positive results and raising awareness of child sexual abuse in this country. So yeah, once again, walking in the shoes of Tyler, a child who is being abused, kind of really brings it home, the pain of child sexual abuse and what we can do within the health sector to make a difference for those children. So if we move on to the next one. Yeah. So this is a film called Teenage Misadventure. This is a film that has only just literally just been launched. And it's about self harm. It was done for the East London NHS Foundation Trust and what they were wanting to do was to make a film that ultimately be stigmatised self harm. Lots of children and young people are turning up in A&Es across the country and they are made to feel perhaps not as good as they perhaps should do, turning up at an A&A, considering they’re probably there for some underlying emotional distress. And so this film was about, sort of, what is self-harm? Why are children and young people self harming? And not to stigmatise children and young people self harming as something that is in some way self-inflicted and perhaps they deserve the same sort of sympathy as somebody else who is in A&E for another condition. And so once again, we spoke to lots of young people. We spoke to clinicians and we came up with sort of quite a hard-hitting drama about the experiences of a boy called Dan and his experiences of going to hospital and how emotionally distressing it can be. And also understanding where the emotional distress comes from. And in his particular case, it came from domestic abuse at home. And this was actually based on real testimony from one of the clinicians that I spoke to. That was the kind of lightbulb moment in terms of the story we were going to create. So I'll just show you the trailer to this one. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: So what was interesting about this film is, first of all, we haven't done a full evaluation on it yet because it has only literally just been launched. But we had a screening of it for the launch of the film and it was attended by senior people in East London NHS Foundation Trust. 8
  9. 9. And what was quite interesting was a discussion sort of broke out during the launch about well, why is it when children and young people go to A&E because they've self harmed, why is it that they have to tell their story to so many different people, from the receptionist through to the triage nurse through to the nurse through to the doctor and ultimately through to the psycho-liaison nurse? Is that the best thing for them? For somebody who is emotionally distressed, is that the best that we can do for them or perhaps should we be treating children who come in with self harming slightly differently? And so, who knows what the discussion would lead to. But once again, it was just feel to think. This creating an emotional connection, making you think differently about the process, making you think differently about how you treat and care for people who are emotionally distressed because of self harm. So yeah, giving context to thinking again. OK, this is the last film I want to show. This has literally just been launched. This is a film called Beyond Baby Blue. It's commissioned by the charity Best Beginnings and it was actually launched as part of the Heads Together Campaign by the Duchess of Cambridge along with lots of other short documentary films at the Royal College of Obstetricians. It was part of a broader initiative called Out of the Blue. And once again, this is a film… Sorry, this is a film about postnatal depression and once again, it was researched through lots of interviews with different women and men who had gone through postnatal depression. And when I was speaking to these people, there was a real sense that the commonality of experience tragically was that most of the women I spoke to - in fact, I think all of them I spoke to had considered killing their own child. And all of them had actually considered suicide as well. So it was quite staggering that when I was speaking to these women who had suffered from postnatal depression and we decided to feature this. So it's harrowing, it is very hard-hitting, it is distressing. But we wanted it to be true to the experience of women who were suffering postnatal depression. We didn't want to shy away from that. And we wanted it to really hit home. And, you know, one of the initiatives, one of the reasons behind this initiative is hopefully to bring policy change as well around postnatal depression. So I'll show you the trailer to the film. (Video plays) CHRIS GODWIN: Yeah, so it was a harrowing film, but hopefully it's going to have a big impact and really starts to change things for women who are suffering from postnatal depression and also men. We’re actually looking for funding to get a film about the male perspective on postnatal depression as well, which is something that is really needed. So Louis, could we go on to the final slide? So yeah, just a kind of wrap up and to kind of conclude, I -think, you know, we talk about patient-centred care and the way to really, I suppose, to really live out patient-centred care is really use the power of empathy and use it in a way that can really make a big difference. And hopefully demonstrated for you today, not only the power of empathy, but the power of film to use empathy in a really productive way, both in terms of behaviour change but also system and process changes well. 9
  10. 10. Yes, we need charts, we need graphs, we need spreadsheets, we need all those things. But we also can't forget about the emotional connection and we can't forget what that gives you in terms of the context of thinking. As I said, they are not training films. They are behaviour change dramas and they are designed to show you how to do things... Sorry, they are designed to enable you to reflect differently on your own lives and your own practice and hopefully think differently about others. And that is, essentially, the kind of message that I want my work to do, my films to do, is to really make people think differently and resolve to make a difference and change. So that's me. I'm done and I'd be happy to answer any questions and hear any thoughts from everyone today. JANET WILDMAN: Hi, Chris. That was so powerful. There's been so much discussion in the chat room. I'm going to hand over first of all to Leigh to find out what's happening in Twitter, what’s the conversation like there, how’s this resounding with our wider audience? So over to you, Leigh, first. Hi, you there, Leigh? LEIGH KENDALL: Hiya, can you hear me? JANET WILDMAN: Yes, I can. LEIGH KENDALL: Hiya. And thanks so much for a really compelling talk there, Chris. It was absolutely fantastic. People on Twitter have been re-tweeting and sharing their thoughts and I think people have been very much glued to all of the trailers and everything that we've seen. So lots of food for thought there for people and to really understand how the films have made such a huge impact on the audiences and it’s only really just starting, I think. So yeah, thank you very much. JANET WILDMAN: Thanks very much there, Leigh. And over to Louis on the chat room. Is there anything you would like to feedback on that? LOUIS WARNER: Hi, everyone. Yeah, first of all, for me, absolutely amazing. Obviously working with Chris to set this up, I got a glimpse of what was coming, but it isn't (inaudible) today from what you see on screen. Within the chat room, people have been saying about how Deafening Silence betrays that theme of guilt and it’s penetrating to see the reality of the dementia film. And then about how video like this are a catalyst for change within healthcare. And then I think, what is connected throughout the chart is that this should be mandatory training. Everyone should see this. We are privileged to be seeing this today, but that it should be seen by everybody in their healthcare because of the impact it's had. 10
  11. 11. And then at good point raised as well, but how Kingsford Hospital have a free text section, where you can text in about maternity. So you are learning as well as discussing. So yeah. JANET WILDMAN: Thank you so much there, Louis. Over to you, Chris. Any responses to some of those comments? CHRIS GODWIN: Well, it's great that we are talking about stuff already. You know, the mention about Kingsford Hospital. I mean, that's great that that is sort of… You do, it's getting us to share about those things as well. I think that particular fund, The Deafening Silence, was really a hard one to film and I think if you see the film - you can go onto YouTube to actually watch it - the lead actress put in a performance which, you could only think she was really kind of living it and really kind of understood as much I could do, the experience of women who had gone through this. And certainly on set, there was a real power to her performance and to the film itself. And I think, and to be honest with you, that happens quite a lot. It happens quite a lot that, on set, where you feel very moved yourself and it is not such a dry process. You are very struck. And I think that is testimony to the authenticity of the films in that they are rooted in real life experience. And hopefully, that one difference. I think there's an interesting point about making them compulsory. And I think it is absolutely the best way to do it and what was quite interesting about the experience at Guy’s and St Thomas’s with the dementia project is there was a lot of cynicism about it initially. I think because it was being made compulsory to everyone, even if you didn't really deal with dementia patients. What they soon discovered was that actually, people changed their views on it and embraced it in a really, really powerful way. So whilst you were made to attend initially, the sessions… Well, they were quite well attended, but within three weeks, you had people being turned away because word had got around that, you know, you need to see this, you need to watch this film. And so by making it compulsory, I think is a really, really key thing. That may be one incentive, making it compulsory to watch it, but I suppose the other incentive could also be (inaudible) CBD training and another element to make people sort of engagement. JANET WILDMAN: Thanks for that, Chris. The other thing I just wanted to mention quite quickly is that you do make the distance, the important differentiation between teaching film and your films. Could you just take us through what you mean by that? CHRIS GODWIN: Yeah, I think that's kind of… They are very, very different. I mean, what's quite interesting with the dementia film was when we were doing the research for it and we were working with Guy’s and St Thomas’s quite closely, we were asked if we could do a Sliding Doors (unknown term) in the film, i.e. let's show bad practice and then let's show exactly the same thing as good practice. And we really fought against that because that, for us, was training. That's a training film and by doing it that way, you almost kind of strip out the emotion there because it takes you out of that moment and it's saying, "This is what you need to learn here.” If at any point, you are watching this films and you are thinking, "Oh, I should be learning something,” then it is not achieving what it is supposed to do. 11
  12. 12. The learning has got to come through reflection and if it comes to reflection, it's going to be far deeper and longer lasting than somebody saying, "You need to do this, you need to do that.” I think we've all seen powerful films and we've reflected on them for days afterwards and that's what these films have got to do. They've got to be that powerful, they have to have that much of an emotional connection that the learning stays there deep down for a longer than if it were a training film. JANET WILDMAN: Chris, I want to say thank you on behalf of everybody who's joined us, in the chat room, on Twitter and the Horizons group. We really enjoyed that session. It was just really thought-provoking. It's taken us to another place in terms of addressing some really difficult challenging issues. A big thank you to you. I want to say to everybody who is joined us, have a great weekend. Look forward to the next session Edge Talks on the 2 June and have a great weekend and see you then. Take care, everyone. Be safe, bye. 12

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