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Episode 236: ADA Anniversary: What Does
the Future Look Like for People with
Disabilities at Work
Intro: ​[00:00:01.02] ​Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive workplace leader. Join host
Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com, as she sits down and gets to the bottom of trends, tools and case
studies for the business leader, HR and recruiting professional who is tired of the status quo. Now here's Jessica with
this episode of Workology.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:00:26.00] ​This month marks the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
The A.D.A was the world's first comprehensive declaration of equality for people with disabilities. It was a
collaborative effort of Democrats, Republicans, the legislative and the executive branches, Federal and State
Agencies, and people with and without disabilities. President Bush signed the Americans with Disabilities Act into law
on the White House lawn on July 20th, 1990. It was the world's first comprehensive civil rights law for people with
disabilities. The signing represented a historical benchmark and a milestone in America's commitment to full and
equal opportunity for all its citizens. This podcast episode takes a look at bold predictions for what the next 30 years
has in store for the workplace and its technology for people with disabilities, this episode is part of the Workoogy
podcast, and it's part of our Future of Work series powered by PEAT. The Partnership on Employment and
Accessible Technology in honor of the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. We've been
investigating this year what the next 30 years will look like for people with disabilities at work and the potential of
emerging technologies to make workplaces more inclusive and accessible. Today for this special episode I'm joined
again by Josh Christianson. Josh is the co-director for the Partnership Unemployment Inaccessible Technology.
Josh, welcome back to the Workology podcast.
Josh Christianson: ​[00:02:03.00]​ Thank you. Just glad to be back a second time in a relatively short period.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:02:08.00] ​Yeah, well, so this series or this energy is a little bit different. You and I are
more just talking about our favorite predictions that we've had as part of this season, I guess, of the Future of Work
series. So we're gonna dive into, I think, five different predictions and take a look. So the first prediction we have is
from Joel Ward. And he had really this to say on emergent merging technology and where it's going to lead.
I think XR will have an impact, big impact. But I honestly feel like technology, like XR, coupled with tech, like
artificial intelligence and robotics, will probably have the biggest impact, at least from what we have seen
now.
Jessica Miller-Merrell:​ ​[00:02:54.00]​ ​Josh, just how important is X R in the future of workplace for people with
disabilities?
Josh Christianson:​ [00:03:02.00]​ Yeah, I think it's important. I think it's exciting. And I think it is also potentially
damaging or dangerous to a company and their talent if it's not handled with care. Like much of the technology I think
we'll discuss today. But just to give, you know, a nod to what Joel saying, which I agree with XR or extended reality,
you know, the mixed reality of virtual and or augmented kind of different overlays is just rapidly having a big impact on
the workplace, specifically around, you know, training and kind of learning and development of employees. And there
seems to be kind of limitless potential there in a way, for companies and organizations to design training scenarios, to
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deliver information in a way that people really absorb it and learn from it. And so it's just kind of super exciting to see
what that holds. And I think, you know, one of the most exciting things about XR and its importance is it is also as a
general technology or platform. It's fraught with potential pitfalls for inclusion, for accessibility. It is not an easy thing.
It's not the remediation of a word document. It's not, you know, all tag on a picture. You know, we're talking about this
potentially immersive environment, overlaid environments that, you know, is just not simple on its face of how you
would include people of various abilities. And so, you know, I think the easiest way to think about that is when I think
about XR, you know, I think of a big headset covering someone's eyes. Well, what does that mean for someone that's
blind or or has low vision? And how do you make that a tool in which they could learn or access? So it is important
because we're already seeing it shape the work world. And for me, the second layer of its importance really comes is
how can we not not be? Because I'm not involved in technology, not me. We because I'm hiring people. But how can
we as a society, make sure that this tool is inclusive? And the exciting part for me is if we can make XR accessible,
which people are working on right now and making great gains, it can be a template for how we make other emerging
technologies that we have yet to even imagine how we can make those accessible. So I think that for me is kind of
the importance of XR not just in its functional value and how it is and will be used. That will definitely grow. And I think
we'll talk a little bit more about where we'll see that. But it's really the opportunity for a group to tackle the issue of
making an emerging technology accessible when traditionally we have always retrofitted technology to make it
accessible. Now we can look at how we design it, how do we do it? Even just imagine it's used in an application in a
way that would be more inclusive.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:06:25.00] ​I like the approach that so many of the developers and thought leaders and
inclusion advocates are taking in terms of trying to work and collaborate together to develop a future that is
accessible and inclusive for everyone when it comes to XR
Josh Christianson: ​[00:06:41.00] ​Yeah, and I think, you know, you've had some guests on and I think it's been
spoken about this group in particular called XR Access. It's one that we and PEAT are heavily involved in and it's got
academics and technology developers and companies really focused on XR all together at the table coming together
to make sure that this is accessible and they're making great gains and they're designing a process, a playbook for
how to make emerging technology accessible. That's kind of agnostic of the tool or technology itself. And so that is
super exciting to see. We're actually on the heels of releasing what's called the XR playbook, which is out of this
group and their thoughts and their designs and their work on how they have come together as a group to address
creating this tool, this new nation. Technology is going to have a big impact. How can they be on the front end on the
cusp of this? Ensure that they're doing what they can to develop it as they go, as they learn in real time and make it
accessible and inclusive for all.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:07:56.00] A​I was a popular topic for our podcast series this year with PEAT. One of my
favorite interviews was with Chancey Fleet. She's an assistive technology librarian in New York. Let's hear her
prediction, shall we?
I really think that these tools that claim to make hiring decisions more seamless and frictionless for you are
actually creating a tremendous legal liability and having a chilling effect on diversity inclusion. So I would
recommend against using them in their current form. And if you think that they have a future, engage really
strongly with vendors to explore how their A.I. models are redefining existing biases and the culture
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:08:44.00] ​Josh, what do you think about Chancey’s thoughts on AI and how is it
redefining existing biases?
Josh Christianson: ​[00:08:51.00] ​Well, first of all, it's great to hear from Chancey. She is a brilliant and passionate
advocate in this area. And, you know, she's right. This has potential positive power, but it is fraught with pitfalls. And
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that's something which, you know, multiple players in this growing field are really dealing with, but probably not
enough. The rapid growth of AI models are so big that some of it's being ignored and more part of people that are
looking at that. But, you know, if I were to kind of step back and talk about AI in general and how it might redefine
existing biases, you know, it's important for people to realize that of all the different ways that you can structure
machine learning and artificial intelligence, there still is a beginning. That is at least a beginning. It should happen
frequently, but there is a beginning in which a person is programming in the parameters, the processes to evaluate
data, how what to be compared with what. And so, you know, any fault and flaw that a human has around biases is
going to be translated and put into the initial designs of artificial intelligence. So, you know, a common phrase you
sometimes hear is garbage in, garbage out. If you have an error or problem in setting up your machine learning,
you're going to see that on the other end. But the tricky part, I think, specifically about A.I. that relates to this is
twofold. The first is that there is this perceived objectivity around AI, right. If a machine, a computer decides who we
hire or who we interview and or who we hire and supports in that, then how could it be biased, right? How could it be
discriminatory if it was just a machine? And so people have a little bit too much blind faith that the machine is being
objective when again, it can be extremely discriminatory. And depending upon what was put in there, you know, it can
be problematic. But then people can be kind of once removed, shielded and have a feeling of, oh, you know, we've
been fair. We've been you know, we've thought about equity and this is what the computer said. So they can kind of
provide a shield to people, whether conscious or unconscious, around, you know, issues of equity and fairness. That
is a little bit dangerous that I think we need to be mindful of as we are utilizing and including A.I.. The second is an
approach that I mentioned at first, really, but it has the power and we've seen it do artificial intelligence to replicate the
status quo. I think it was a guest on our podcast here that talked about you. If you say, hey, we're going to put out, we
want to figure out how to make the best product manager of some generic product manager. And, hey, look, we've
got these five people. They are awesome at this job. So let's figure out what it is that makes them awesome and how
we can go get more of these awesome people. Well, if you're not careful, a machine is going to look at whatever data
you give it, including background, education, sometimes even demographics get folded in there. Consciously or not.
And if your product managers today, all look like 40 year old white males that went to elite college institutions, you
have a strong potential for a guy to replicate that and say, oh, if you you want to you want to see people that are
successful, we should just go hire these people because they are shown successful. And so it has the danger of
really replicating the status quo based on certain data or metrics or demographics or experience that will leave a lot of
people out and will not include people and will not allow the space to interview or hire people. Could be the best fit for
your company.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:13:11.00] ​And we've seen that and Amazon is a great case study example of how an A.I.
technology can discriminate in the hiring and screening process.
Josh Christianson: ​[00:13:23.00] ​Yeah. So speaking of the interviews, we've also talked to another number of
people, including Alex, Alexandra Gibbons, who's the founding executive director of the Institute for Technology, Law
and Policy at Georgetown Law. A big group that really looks at, you know, technology and its legal implications. And
they have a specific new group that's looking at artificial intelligence and its impact on people with disabilities. She's
an attorney. Her work is focused on helping people protect people with disabilities from discrimination, specifically
with this group. And here's a quote she had to say when you interviewed her. I'd love you to listen to.
When we start thinking about remote technologies, it really should and can be improving workplace
opportunities as well. There's a clear shift in workplace culture, a more open understanding now about
teleworking and flexible schedules. And in my mind, that is all for the good and can be really enormously
helpful, the more that we make those opportunities available for people. I will say that that's good stuff. I do
still think there's a lot to be done, right. The unemployment rate for workers with disabilities is still more than
twice that of non-disabled workers. And anybody who cares or thinks about this space needs to own that
and think about our roles in trying to transform that reality. We have these massive systemic problems that
technology is just not going to fix.
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Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:14:55.00] ​We need to address systemic problems first before we can influence and
change Artificial Intelligence algorithms and technology. She's really spot on. And I love the work that she's doing at
Georgetown.
Break: ​[00:15:06.00] ​Let's take a reset. This is Jessica Miller-Merrell, and you are listening to the Worklogy Podcast.
Today we are talking with Josh Christianson from PEAT. And we're taking a look forward at what the next 30 years
will have in store in the workplace when it comes to accessibility and people with disabilities. This podcast is
sponsored by Workology, and it's part of our Future of Work podcast series in partnership with PEAT, the
Partnership, on Employment and Accessible Technology.
Break: ​[00:15:35.00] ​The Workology Podcast Future of Wor​k series is supported by PEAT, the Partnership on
Employment and Accessible Technology. PEAT's initiative is to foster collaboration and action around accessible
technology in the workplace. PEAT is funded by the U.S. Department of Labor's Office of Disability Employment
Policy, ODEP. Learn more about PEAT at peatworks.org. That's peatworks.org.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:16:04.00] ​Our next prediction comes from one of my favorite podcasts, interviews, Josh,
in our series with Chris Baumgart from Imagine Colorado. Here's his prediction. Let's listen here.
I will say that I think that we're seeing is already becoming a trend with a lot of potential is machine learning
and augmented reality or smart glasses. I know we're all aware of the big snafu of the Google glasses from
years of yore. And there are a lot of people who speculate as to why they didn't really take on the way that
they did. But what we're seeing now is with machine learning, we can actually, essentially use the tools
around us to teach in real time.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:16:49.00] ​Josh, what are your thoughts about augmented reality and smart glasses to
continue to influence and enhance workplace accessibility?
Josh Christianson: ​[00:16:58.00] ​You know, it has just great potential. It has great potential, if you can imagine how
we use computers, our phone to access information. Imagine something that is just kind of sitting there as an overlay
real time with important information you need to access with problem solving capabilities, with, you know, the ability
to highlight relevant and related information in real time. It could be like the ultimate assistant, you know. I mean, it
could really be the ultimate assistant in regards to information and access to that information, whether that's internal
within a company or external, you know, writ large into the broader Internets. And so just beginning to scratch the
surface of how this will really impact the workplace. And so likewise, we're just beginning to scratch the surface
around accessibility. But there are many examples we're already seeing where, you know, people are using these as
a tool that is just extraordinarily helpful for them as individuals to bring their capacities and talents to the workplace.
Various technologies that, you know, have a camera in them and people that are blind or have low vision can look
around. And then they've got, you know, connected to a kind of an earpiece that's back in their ear and someone is
on the other end can see and translate and describe what's going on and what they're seeing, which has allowed
many people to engage, interact with the world in ways they had previously thought undoable. And so you could see
that coming into the workplace, too, and the accommodations that might have been needed for someone that was
blind, that extra support or help that a company needed to think about and produce the kind of legal and HR issues
that companies have struggled with traditionally when it comes to including people, disabilities could in large part be
alleviated by some of the technology that's that's growing. It's called the IRA. And they have a service that's been
growing where they have a group of people ready to provide information real time through these glasses. And it's
exciting how that's accelerated. The company has grown and they've had some growing pains. But as an example of
what and how augmented reality could boost inclusion. It's been exciting. So, you know, Jessica, it's not just the
workplace in terms of working that will change. But, you know, everything will evolve over the next 30 years when it
comes to accessibility and inclusion. But specifically within the workplace, we're talking about the hiring, training
onboarding process as having a place that will have, you know, really be impacted. This is one of the one of my
favorite predictions from your interviews. It came from George Karalis, from STRIVR, who had a great prediction.
Great quote. Let's listen to this.
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There's a few things I would say about immersive technology and the Future of Work. So first, there's the
hiring process. We know that your performance in a job interview is often not a good predictor of how you'll
actually do on the job. So I hope that in the future we'll use immersive technology and also AI for skills
assessments in simulated work environments that will ultimately result in better and more equitable hiring
practices.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:20:42.00] ​Yes. I love talking with George. This is why we are here and helping to
educate, train and share resources as we move forward in this evolution, hiring and training are an important part of
that. What type of simulated work environments are you most interested in, Josh?
Josh Christianson: ​[00:21:00.00] ​Well, you know, it is already being applied broadly from surgery to inventory,
logistics, from customer service to security details to teaching. There are just a blossoming number of ways that
companies and organizations are using this technology to really help in kind of a training, education, professional
development process. I think what I'm most excited about and most interested in. So I think an area where we're
seeing applied already and growing in use that I'm most interested in is really just in onboarding. So, you know,
companies are forever trying to improve their iterations of onboarding. How can they best get people up to speed with
their knowledge of, you know, the administrative stuff they need to learn the culture of a company, much less and
including, obviously, the responsibilities of that particular hire. And so I think the onboarding capabilities that are and
potential that is there are around kind of XR and it's overlayed with A.I. and machine learning is just huge. And so for
four companies to be able to hire people and quickly get them up to speed and for a person to feel like they're getting
the information they need, they're getting into the mix. They're understanding whether it's administrative processes or
cultural norms. XR with the overlay of AI just has a potential ability to really revolutionize menace to a word, but just
really change for the better how people are brought into a company. And I think, you know, as your age, our audience
knows that kind of engagement, that kind of morale, the power of feeling informed and included within a company
really is a two way street of benefits. And I look forward to seeing how that will play out.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:23:09.00] ​I really loved George's interview and my retail H.R. The background was just
going crazy because I see so much potential in terms of simulations and training opportunities that might happen
often.
Josh Christianson: ​[00:23:26.00] ​Yeah. That's sales and the kind of coaching or interaction that happens in a sales
environment, which is such a big part of what so many do. How well, you can kind of train real time, you know,
examples and and really work with people to enhance and refine their own kind of approach and pitch to a company
or a product. It could be exciting
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:23:52.00] ​As technology, adoption and its evolution grows. It's our responsibility,
especially in HR, to keep up with these changes and focus on how they're influencing accessibility and inclusion for
every employee, especially those with disabilities. I wanted to ask you, Josh, what's your prediction for the next 30
years?
Josh Christianson: ​[00:24:13.00] ​So I'm excited. The next 30 years, I think we have the potential to really
demonstrate the power of universal design. And so if we keep in mind that technology is a tool. It's not the answer
itself, but a tool that provides us with solutions. And we design those tools in a way that allow people to be included
and to engage. I think that outcomes and the benefits are going to be huge. And I know from experience in my work,
tech companies are really leading this. And maybe you know, not everyone sees it yet, but they have pockets of
innovation that are working on accessibility and emerging technology that are really astounding. And so I think, you
know, I'm just excited to see their continued growth and development in these areas as technologies, new ones will
be born and, you know, powerful tools we have yet to imagine will come to the forefront. And it'll be great to see what
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they develop. The part of that also then is incumbent upon us and companies to make sure that we're paying
attention to standards and guidelines and that we're buying the platforms that meet the challenge of inclusiveness.
And so from a procurement perspective, whether it's HR or the chief information officer or whoever, you know, paying
attention to what what tools we're buying is going to have a resounding effect kind of on a company and on the
employees, allowing people to just participate and bring their strengths and gifts to the workplace and work with
others to kind of bring to fruition. So, you know, you read the Harvard Business abuse of diverse teams with the best
answers. But how do we really create spaces where these diverse teams might be able to share and build ideas and
answers? And so I see the next 30 years probably what has been the previous 30 years, but now it's kind of growing
exponentially as technology does. But I see in the next 30 years around digital inclusion and universal design and
creating tools that allow people to engage is kind of a microcosm or laboratory for how we as society can do that.
How we as society can engage people and incorporate others in all. Technology really has the ability to lift voices that
were previously unhear, to see people that were on scene and pay attention to pockets of humanity, intelligence that
were often ignored. And I think that's super exciting, both for work and beyond. And so my prediction is positive that
digital accessibility will lead the way in, including others, to develop specific solutions, to develop overarching
processes in a way that we can design a world that allows everyone to participate in the fullest.
Jessica Miller-Merrell: ​[00:27:32.00] ​Well, thank you so much for kind of being my co-pilot on this special episode,
Josh. I've had a lot of fun and I appreciate you joining me again. Where can people go to connect with you and learn
more about what PEAT does?
Josh Christianson: ​[00:27:44.00] ​Yeah, so the real repository of all our information and resources, the first stop for
anyone that wants to learn more is the Website. So PEAT works dot org, or ​www.peatworks.org​. And really from
there you would be able to launch or engage into any way to get more information. There's you know, you can email
there, it's info at peatworks.org. You're gonna be able to click around and find a number of resources on different
topics that you can pick and choose from. And so I would encourage people to go there and engage. Let us know
what's missing. Well, we could add and I would just say broadly and in PEAT is, as we are demonstrating right now,
Jessica, really a collaborative entity. We are not big enough to have an impact by ourselves. We look to partner with
people to form partnerships and collaborations in a way that can magnify our goal and mission. And so I would say
when you go there and you learn more and you get some information or maybe you email us ideas, suggestions,
keep in mind we are looking to collaborate. We want to highlight things. We want to work with people, solve
problems. And so I would encourage people to take us up on that and engage us in ways that we can spread the
word of digital accessibility.
Closing: ​[00:29:10.00] ​Are you tired of putting your professional development on the back burner? It's time for you to
invest in yourself with UpSkill HR by Workology. We're a membership community focused on personal development
for HR. Gain access to our elite community training, coaching and events. Learn more at UpSkillHR.com.
Closing: ​[00:29:36.00] ​This July is the 30th anniversary of the signing of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can
follow along on Twitter with the hashtags #ADANext30 and #ADA30. I'll be linking to each of the podcast interviews.
We took the snippets from the predictions in the podcast transcript, along with recommended resources for you to get
up to speed on ADA 30. Thank you again to Josh Christianson for joining us as my special podcast guest and host of
the special episode. It's been fun to look back and think about where we're moving forward in the next 30 years.
Thank you for joining the Workology podcast sponsored by Workology. This podcast is for the disruptive workplace
leader who's tired of the status quo. This is Jessica Miller-Merrell. Until next time you can visit workology.com to listen
to all our Workology podcast episodes.
Workology Podcast​ ​| www.workologypodcast.com | @workology