April 1st, 2010 No. 201003 Preparatory Office of
Pudong New Area
Association of Enterprises
with Foreign (Domestic)
HR Administrators & Specialists Association
ole and functions of official
Special Acknowledgements to: Fu Dan University
Northwest Polytechnic University hallenges of both domestic
(Listed with no special orders)
and overseas HR manage-
BoDa College ment
iscussion on the develop-
Shanghai Jiao Tong University ment of both domestic and
overseas professional HR
Meeting Minutes for 2nd Preparatory Session (March 10, 2010) associations
Following the success of the first preparatory session for Human Assets Standards Association (Preparatory), iscussion on jointly found-
on March 10th, 2010, the authoritative experts from reputable institutions, and HR Directors and VPs of China ing the HR Administrators &
or Asia Pacific region from over 20 world-famous corporations gathered together again to have a second pre- Specialists Association
paratory session. They had further discussed the topics that have general concerns such as the founding of
Human Assets Standards Associations (HASA), the standards of HR industry, the personnel structure of the
society, and employment, etc. The conference was held by Mr. Kevin S. Cheung, the Director General of Ex-
ecutive Committee, Human Resources Commission of PDI and the Coordinator of HASA.
rocess design and evalua-
Mr. Kevin S. Cheung (Zhen Zhang) tion for training
Director General PDI, HR Commission
Coordinator of HASA Contents
Kevin first started with the challenges of Human Resource Management both Meeting minutes for 2nd Pre- 1
within China and in the world. He also elaborated the development of HR paratory session of HASA
professional groups and the functions, the objectives and the necessity of founding
an officially-sanctioned HR association. The attendees proposed their opinions and Meeting minutes for 1st draft- 6
expectations of founding HASA, the professional association for HR practitioners ing committee meeting
one after another. The following are main cited speeches from the participants.
Working Schedule for April- 10
Prof. Jin-Tao Shi May of 2010
Professor from Shanghai Jiao Tong University, Ph.D Advisor
and 3). While we were compiling the growing really quick, but do not have any Human Resource Man-
teaching materials for the test, we agement. When these kinds of private enterprises develop to certain
also tried to draw on the experience level, they will lose competitiveness in the market. Some of them
’m of foreign materials, but it is still not would hire consulting companies to work for them for a while. How-
honored to international enough. We suppose ever, the HR systems would not be probably used once set up. The
be here and to transit internationalization to reason is that they don't understand the systems at all, so they can't
communi- localization, which is our ultimate take benefits from that. I believe that management could enhance
cate with all goal. I think we are facing three efficiency, and good HRM is the key to achieve that. For example, if
of you to- problems at the moment: you can't keep the core R&D staff, you will lose core competitive-
day. I think How to innovate? (We should be ness. I think one of our most important tasks is not to issue certifi-
it’s of great different from any other associa- cates, but to set up the standards that could be used by every HR
significance tions); practitioner. As an academic staff in university, I'm more than happy
to establish an industry association like How to contribute? (Everyone in to contribute myself to this community.
this. There is a general election of the the association should contribute);
Dean of Antai Business School this year. How to share? (Whoever contrib-
We select the candidates from all over uted in the association should
the world. If the Human Resource Man- have the rights to get rewarded).
agement is internationalization-oriented, In order to speed up the develop-
it would be developed much faster. The ment, I think that we should have
topics discussed today are quite different three characteristics: 1. Authority, 2.
compared with previous ones. The Minis- Legality, and 3. Universality (let
try of Labor used to issue certificates for every HR practitioner understand).
Human Resource Specialists (Level 1, 2 Some private enterprises have been
Page 2 人力资源从业者公会（筹）
Mr. Owen Qian (Guo-Xin Qian), HR & Admin Director from Nippon Paint
(Vice Director General of PDI HR Commission)
I'm very interested in today's topics, so volunteer to speak. I want to address
several issues: 1. The Wealth of Nations mainly talks about allocating, which
helps a lot in improving productivity. McDonald’s in Hong Kong usually would
hire some mentally retarded people to work for them. This is so smart be-
cause this would largely promote the social image, plus those people are fully
capable for the job. 2. Can talents be duplicated fast? I always propose to
manage personnel by systems and standards rather than showing too much
individuality. In this way, corporations are able to duplicate the HRM models
and training models, so the human resources in the organizations could grow
faster thus meet the need of Human Resource for running the business. 3.
Now most of CEOs are promoted from CFOs or marketing and technical positions. What are their
differences compared with CHOs? I think that our role in the companies is not clear enough. The
standards for recruiting and employment are not clear at all. Every CHO could have totally different
working style, which I believe is the biggest difference compared with the CFO. CFOs can obtain
industrial information through various channels. The outcome of work is able to be quantified. How-
ever, CHOs do not have such comparability within the industry. The difference between CFO and
CHO is clearly the ability to manage data, which is crucial to an organization's operation. I'm one of
the a few HR professionals who also take care of both HRM and finance. I'm eager to improve the
ability of analyzing data throughout my HR team. Generally speaking, the job design, contribution rate
and labor productivity and etc. are core information of an organization. Can we offer HR industrial
reference through a credible platform with confidentiality? 4. Knowledge management: many things
can be recorded, but thoughts can’t . We should consolidate the essence of HRM through HASA, so
the next generation of HR professionals can be benefited and be more successful. In conclusion, I
believe it is necessary to establish an association like HASA for HR industry. I'm willing to contribute
myself, and meanwhile, take benefits from it as well.
Mr. Jason Yang (Qun-Sheng Yang), HR Director-AP from Arvin Meritor
There is no doubt that it’s so important to establish HASA. I also believe that
HR could have standards established. Next time we may discuss about the
topics per the HR modules like: Operation HR, Strategic HR, etc. There are
some HR reports in the market. Now that you can pay and get. But those
organizations are operated for profits, unlike HASA, a non-profit association.
Eventually we can have more members to contribute. Certainly, I’d get some
industrial information from the association as well. Nowadays some Chinese
enterprises are trying to acquire foreign companies, even if they succeed,
what most challenges is HR issues afterwards. Through HASA, we can learn
about the HR standards in different countries, because the members of the
association are from various parts of the world. Moreover, HASA may also discuss about how to im-
prove the competencies of HR practitioners: for example, the application of psychology in HRM and
etc., because HR is also type of Art.
Ms. Julie Tang (Bei-Li Tang), HR General Manager from CSAV
I am the examiner of the National Human Resource Specialist Test, I strongly
feel the lack of measurement criteria. The biggest challenge that faces us
everyday is what data we can use to convince our bosses and line managers,
who are used to reading data. If HR has standards and can be interpreted by
formula, that would be much easier. We should use their language to con-
vince them and statistics is such a bridge.
Page 3 No. 201003
Ms. Vivian Wang (Fang Wang), HR Director-AP from Eaton
Our company is a manufacturing company. Every year when we prepare the budget,
the HR department have difficulty in finding industrial benchmarks. Now we can do is
only to measure the sufficiency of workforce by referring to historical standards of the
company. There’s no convincing statistics of the industry that we can use for reference.
Regarding the different production lines and the different costs of workforce, there’s big
variance in HR management. This is also due to the lack of standards.
Ms. Yi Wang, VP of HR from Chartis Insurance
How to be an authoritative association? We can only survive when there are needs.
The foreign markets are comparatively mature and stable, so it is suitable for standardi-
zation. Though we can refer to the standards of foreign HR industry, however, foreign
markets are quite different from ours. We need to think about what the Chinese mar-
kets need, what Chinese HR practitioners need, and what are the objectives of our
Speaking of the industrial standards for HR, I believe it could be a double-edged
sword. Once the HR standards are established, they will help the companies to make
right decisions, however on the other hand, it could put a lot pressure on HRM if the
organization tries to follow the standards regardless what they really need.
Since we are from different social networks and industries, we should share our experience more with others.
By that means, more people will be benefited and be willing to join HASA. This should also be one of the ob-
In terms of universality, I would concentrate on the name of our association, which should have more broad
representativeness. To set the industry standards could be one of the association's missions, but not all. The
association should advocate more people to join as members. Besides those from multinationals, we need
more members from local entities as well. We can't rely on limited organizations to represent the entire HR
Ms. Sharen Yang (Xian-Hong Yang), HR Director-Greater China from CBRE
I’m very excited learning about the establishment of HASA, meanwhile, have concerns
as well. It is good to have such an association. I’ve been working overseas for quite a
long time. Many industries there have associations: for example, lawyers, accountants,
doctors and etc., they all have industry-wide associations. The industrial associations
usually have significant impact on the industry’s development through credibility. Indus-
try associations can set up standards and guidelines to regulate the industrial develop-
ment, correct irregular phenomena and help to enhance the professional levels of new
practitioners. Certainly, with the help of HASA, we can also communicate with the gov-
ernment to improve the feasibilities of decision-making, like social securities, pension
and etc.. This will become a great platform for communication. In China, at this moment, many industries al-
ready have associations. If we want to establish the association for HR industry, we are facing the challenge
that we need to figure out the missions and goals of this association, as well as functions.
Page 4 人力资源从业者公会（筹）
Mr. Menon Jayesh, Sr. HR Director from Flextronics
Today's discussions are specially valuable. Every location has different situa-
tions of HRM. For China, the difference is labor. The costs of workforce in
China has been increasing a lot recently. Compared to neighboring countries,
Malaysia could have lower labor costs because they have people from Indone-
sia and the Philippines. Labor costs of inland areas of China are cheaper than
of the coastal cities. Multinationals behave better in terms of operating busi-
ness legally. How to help other organizations to create a fine environment for
operations? How to support the government to offer feasible advices for em-
ployment laws and regulations from HR? Many HR practitioners today are too
ego. We are willing to share experiences with others, and of course, expect to
gain information from this network. This is the only way to encourage sharing
HR intelligence and experience. Through HASA, we are able to coach junior HR practitioners, there-
fore promote the competencies of the whole industry.
When we talk about HR, we specially concentrate on globalization. However, HR localization is the
same important. India has many HR networks. Through those, people get connected and share suc-
cessful experiences. But we need to notice that some of the industry associations will lose attractive-
ness gradually. We should consider how HASA can help and reward the members and the HR indus-
try. The motives to found HASA are wonderful. A few arguments are beneficial sometime. If we could
set up some standards and benchmarks, it could help a lot when we voice at work. We have to keep
on the passion.
Mr. Eddie Jiang (Jing Jiang), HR Director from GSK
What are our prospective visions? I would say: 1. Though HRM is a kind of art,
we need some scientific stuff to help us fulfill the job in formal ways. 2. Indus-
trial benchmarks are more than necessary. Checking with the benchmarks is
like taking a health check for the company. The index out of a reasonable
range could be a reminder for us to review if we need more improvement in
HR. 3. It can enhance the knowledge of junior HR Practitioners from science
angel. 4. We may assist the government in regulating market behaviors by
building industry standards. 5. By collecting voices and feedbacks from the
industry, we will be able to provide advices and suggestions to the government
when they make public decisions.
There is a HR association for foreign enterprises in Beijing under Beijing
FESCO (Beijing Foreign Service Company). They have given valuable suggestions to the govern-
ment when the government make Labor Management Regulations in Beijing. They have represented
the HR industry and influenced the public decisions, and created a better investment environment.
HASA, as an industry-wide association, is not the same with some other HR clubs that affiliated to
commercial entities. Its standpoint should be more universal and neutral. We need to think about the
positioning of this association. Can the association become an organization that objectively evaluates
enterprises’ HRM level, or it has other functions?
Mr. Chun Li, VP of HR from Goodbaby
Recently, I'm preparing teaching materials about HRM for my HR team. Most
of the teaching materials and reference books of HR in markets are not good
enough. One of the disadvantages is the deficiency of on-site experience.
Either from the angle of views or the applications, those publications are not
appropriate to apply to business operations directly. HR professionals have to
understand the organizations’ needs before the accomplish their assignments.
What are the organization’s HR demands? Do needs change when the organi-
zation is at different phases of development? These directly determine HR's
role and responsibilities. The founders of HASA are top HR professionals and
we all have rich practical experience. If everyone could summarize the es-
sence of their work: for example, C&B, training, recruiting and so on, then we
can quickly train the juniors and thus duplicate talents.
Page 5 No. 201003
Mr. Willie Ye (Cheng-Wei Ye), HR Director-Greater China from Arkema
Normally the professional associations has some linkage to judicial or gov-
ernmental organs. Associations like these in other countries are usually very
authoritative and very powerful. Can we get connected with the Ministry of
Human Resources and Social Security? One of the most important prob-
lems that HR face at work is that we have to handle some issues related
with laws or governmental policies: for example, recruiting, training, C&B
and etc. Currently, HR departments have to work with the governmental
labor administrative organs for those affairs. In that way, HR have to spend
too time and involvement, but also that methodology reduces the govern-
Can we possibly build up liaisons governmental organs? We may formulate industrial rules and
guidelines authorized by the government. Through those, HASA will be able to regulate organiza-
tions’ behavior in HRM. Therefore, HASA’s certification will be able to assist the government in
monitoring organizations’ HRM. Whoever gets HASA’s certification will do more legally and profes-
sionally in human resource management.
There are quite a lot industries that have associations now, the platform of HASA. It is believed that the industry standards and
such as insurance and banking. There also exit many associations guidelines produced by this means will have largest universality,
for practitioners in HK, TW and overseas, such as for doctors, and will be recognized and utilized by all HR people. One of the
accountants, architects and etc. As the HR practitioners manages objectives today is to give feedbacks on some controversial issues
workforce for the society, our role is specially critical. Our or topics worth investigated from the 1st preparatory session. The
competencies directly influence the country: whether it can achieve role of HASA should not be limited. It may have more functions to
the economic development goals, whether it can optimize talent be derived. Both of the preparatory sessions consist of founding
structures, whether it can improve the quality of workforce, and it members, who are all senior HR executives. Though some of the
can promote employment rates and thus achieve the founding members not able to join us today due to time or
macroeconomic strategic objectives? The country’s economic geographical restrictions, they have given valuable opinions and
development plan needs every economic entity and every suggestions to us before and after the meetings.
company to implement, which is closely related to HRM. So far, we The founding members of HASA are from world-famous
do not have an industry-wide association for HR, and we are not organizations, taking leading roles in their own industries. Although
acting as far as we could have. the founders are not able to contain all organizations, but the HRM
So what can HRM contribute to the society? For example, standards of those model organizations are completely able to
Professor Jin-Tao Shi from Jiao Tong University had participated in represent the development trend of HRM. HASA dedicate to
formulating a proposal of for the country’s HR development. He coaching HR successors, while we can also bridge between the
had offered valuable and professional opinions on retention and government and entities, thus improve local HR’s professional
development for key talents for critical industrial development. This skills and help multinationals better localize.
is one of the important contributions that HR people can reward to It has to be emphasized that unlike an academic society or
the society. other spontaneous associations, an industrial association is
Although there are already existed lots of standards and representing the whole HR industry. On one hand, we must protect
certificates in China and in the world, we are not going to deny the our benefits, build up a platform for HR industry’s better
outcomes that others achieved. On the contrary, we need to add development, create a better environment, advance
value on their basis. As an industrial association, we should refer communications, and strive for rights and interests. On the other
to and take advantages from the accomplishments by others, hand, as the team managing the workforce of the society, we must
meanwhile, we should utilize HASA’s on-site experience and undertake the social missions.
universality to verify the professional achievements from others.
Furthermore, translating theories into practices, and achieving
maximum common agreement within the whole industry through
To improve China’s HR management professionalism, regulate HR industrial behaviors, in order to advancing the globalization for
China’s economy and helping multinationals’ business localization; To support the government’s administration on human resources
development and employment, HASA advocate HR professionals take actions and social responsibilities. The preparatory sessions con-
solidate the missions of HASA as the following statements:
bridge between the government and economic entities in human resources management. To build up and maintain com-
munication and interaction with the government from HR perspective to provide advice for the government's public decision-
making, and create positive social environment for HR management. To contribute to expediting the construction for modern
industrial systems by ensuring the quality and efficiency of economic growth from HR angel;
Through setting up benchmarks, rules and standards, educating & information exchanging, to promote HR professional suc-
cessors and upgrade the level of HR management;
support the government in terms of advancing the quality of the community's workforce, optimizing the talent structure, in
order to promote employment.
Meeting Minutes for 1st Drafting Committee（2010.3.26）
Pu Dong Investment Association, HR Commission
Coordinator of HASA Mr. Kevin S. Cheung (Zhen Zhang) T hrough the previous series of discussions,
HASA has reached some common agreements.
Those contents will be summarized into documents and will be published in the monthly newsletters.
When the preparation is completed, those documents will be submitted to the central government to get
sanctioned as the country-level association. Now, all documents are about to be drafted and the
preparatory committee will ask for opinions from the drafting committee members.
Today’s event is to take the training module as a sample, and in the following discussions, we’ll
continue similar researches into each modules of HR management.
Now the agenda for today: Prof. Zhang will share his research & practice experience in training
quantifying. After that, every participant please propose your suggestions from your own practice. Let’s
evaluate the feasibility to set the training module as a trial.
Professor Wen-Xian Zhang
Professor from Fu Dan University, Ph. D Advisor
where to start? Training is a good starting Learn: This is not talking about the superfi-
pointing. Therefore, training is the key to cial effects and satisfaction, but what you
strategy, the base of execution and the have learned and whether you have ob-
’m secret weapon to success. tained the actual contents of the course?
very glad to We've known from cases of some reputa- Phase 3, Behavior: whether it changes
be here and ble corporations that the training process your behavior by learning this? Phase 4,
discuss is to forecast the training needs, deter- whether the change of behavior has posi-
about this mine trainees, clarify training contents, tive influence on the organization? Trough
topic with select training models, measure training the training, behaviors change thus lead to
you all. We effectiveness and evaluate ROI. outcomes. However whether the outcomes
have had Now we revert back to the effect where will effect performances is yet to be veri-
this kind of training is generated, which is our train- fied.
events many times. ing department. Because of the eco- Today we are discussing ROI (Return On
Today’s topic is still mainly about how nomic turndowns since 2008, quite a lot Investment). That is, we need the statistics
to go deep into the issue of establishing training departments had been dis- to say whether the training effects is good
Human Resource Assets Standards missed. This shows the positioning of or not. It is cost and return from accounting
with Chinese Characteristics. training department in both HR depart- perspective. Cost can be divided into direct
The reason of choosing the module of ment and in the whole organization, had cost, indirect cost, exploiting cost, opera-
training is that I’ve sought for opinions got problems. tion cost and the trainees' remuneration. In
from many people before the confer- Therefore, we need to get to the bottom other words, if we want to measure, ana-
ence. I’ve found that many are still con- of what is the contribution of training and lyze and sum up the cost of training, we
fused and misunderstand about this the assessment models of training. Now, need to determine what is the direct cost,
module. Currently the supply and re- how is the research stage of training indirect cost, exploiting cost, operation cost
quests of training markets has the prob- evaluation in the world from an interna- and the trainees’ remuneration.
lem of irregularity, poor customization tional angle? There only 4 hierarchies of Next let’s see return, which we need to
and poor effectiveness. In the end, the assessment: Level 1, Level 2 to Level 3 have further investigation.
consequence comes back to the organi- and Level 4. There emerges Level 5 I'm especially happy today. I feel like we
zation, it is again the HR’s fault of such now, but this level doesn't have a reliable are in an executive seminar. We are here
costly and energy-consuming job with answer. What is Assessment Level 5? to produce outcomes. There is few out-
no effectiveness. That is the ROI of training should be comes like BSC (Balanced Scorecard) in
However, we can’t deny the value of quantified. It is just an assumption yet.
How to quantify the effect that training the world yet. I hope that we can produce
training itself. I think training is an in-
vestment, a real investment, an invest- creates has not been discussed out. such outcomes here, based on everyone's
ment that could be measured and cre- Now, I’d like introduce a little bit about wisdom, efforts, and intelligence. It is also
ate values instead of a kind of expense. Level 4 Assessment,. Let’s see what because that we have foundation. If we
Training is the headspring of core com- level of your organizations are. Phase 1, have normal small and private enterprises
petitiveness. We always advocate im- Reaction: What aspects are the trainee to discuss about such top issues, it would
proving core competitiveness. So, satisfied with? That is Level 1. Phase 2, be far more difficult because their basic
Page 7 人力资源从业者公会（筹） No. 201003
work is not done. On contrary, the people here are close to the peek of the HR industry. This is a breakpoint of establishing Hu-
man Assets. This is an innovation, because nobody else did so. We have to quantify the final results. Just because it is challeng-
ing, many people never tried to do so.
In order to better quantify the training effectiveness, I suggest start with projects. According to the nature of professionalism, we
are able to figure out what training brings to the specific assignment and what the returns are. Even we might not be able to
quantify the training result into money, but if there is improvement, it means it is feasible. In fact, one of the approaches to im-
prove the organization's key competitiveness is to reduce costs. Training has influences on product costs, material saving, en-
ergy saving and reducing wastes. It would improve cost competitiveness in all aspects and can be even more effective for mar-
keting, product innovation, technology development and so on. Comparatively, to enhance competitiveness through capital op-
eration is more difficult, for that requires special expertise.
Ms. Julie Tang (Bei-Li Tang), General Manager-HR from CSAV
I have some work experience with accounting background. The return of training is relatively difficult to be
quantified. In the past, the training in factories were usually examined by training performance. Once the
training had been conducted, the trainees were required to write down an Action Plan for performance im-
provement. After three weeks, the training manager would follow up the trainees and examine which criteria
had been improved and whether the index were reached. Similar trials had been done for some time, but
the key point is to translate that into money, which is rather difficult. We can expect some benefits if we try.
Our standard is to seek for common agreement while reserving differences. What we are discussing about
is the common sense. What we need to do is to sum up that stuff. Regarding different organizations, they
can customize that according to their demands and backgrounds. Our focus for this discussion is to estab-
lish mathematic models based on Professor Zhang's academic research background.
Ms. Anne Yu (Cui-Qin Yu), Head of HR from Robinson
Return is mainly about improving operation indexes. The change of performance needs to be quantified as
well: for example, the workers in production department have safety issues, e.g. the cost would be reduced
if work injuries decreases, expenses of delayed jobs are reduced and overtime expenses are cut down.
Regarding change of quality: for example, in the food industry, the production facilities are high-class and
costly. If the staff don’t know how to operate, it would cause waste. Through training and some tests, we
could reduce some costs and losses that influence organization’s creditability. Change of attitude: most of
the bosses now expect the staff on whichever positions believe that “Attitude first, ability second”. Bosses
are more satisfied with the staff’s positive working attitudes. When we do training, we concentrate on some
etiquette or refer to the good side of some similar factories. What we expect the change of working attitudes is that you do more
than what you get. This is needed by every boss.
Ms. Qin-Qin Liu, Representative from Li-Ning (Delegate of Mr. Bin Liao, HR Director of Li-Ning)
The trainees are reporting to Line Managers. The Line Managers have to regulate their behavior and do
follow-ups. Because training involves many people and is difficult to trace every person, trainees would be
allocated to every department manager or immediate supervisors. There will be submission after the allo-
cation, and then the Line Managers submit to us and assist HR to get involved in the team.
On one hand we see how the Line Managers value the training, and then we review their actions and final
plans. Their coaches are required as well. Those are lined to line managers’ performance.
Ms. Regina Mok (Qing-Luan Mo), HR Director from Carrier Asia
I want to say that we need to see whether your training is of great scale, or aim at one person’s particular
skill. If there is a huge group of people, it is hard to measure your return. But it would be much easier if we
do on purpose.
We do value training. We have our plans when implement trainings. We review how many employees have
successful performance after trained: whether they act differently before and after the training? We should
determine whether that effect is derived from training or just a subsequence of the market. Normally it is
difficult to tell apart. However, we can find the trend is good or bad. We categorize all the projects in the
company and see how ROI links to our business and outcomes.
Mr. Chun Li, VP of HR from Goodbaby
To quantify training is a pseudo-proposition. Changes of human’s behaviors can never be measured from
training perspective. The evaluation, reward, and penalty after training are hard to be done, because the
change is caused by a huge system. So it is hard to look at from one angle: the angel of raining. There are
three aspects of training needs: 1. Make sure the training plan is related to business issues. To concretize
the training goal while conducting; 2. While implementing the training program, to make sure every atten-
dees is clear about the problems to be solved: to concretize their expectations. When evaluate training out-
comes, to evaluate by investigating if that individual’s particular problem has been solved. 3. Knowledge
management: We should have training improve continuously. The importance is to keep the training materi-
als and trainees would get great effects as well even if that is facilitated by other trainers. All trainings
should meet those three requirements. In that way, the training managers will be clear about the emphasis,
and how to deal with them. From psychology perspective, human being’s behavior is hard to be assessed by one action. For
example, the increment of sales is not all training effect. This is a very systematic behavior; it would be helpful to analyze it.
Mr. Borren Chen (Zheng-Jie Chen), HR Director-Greater China from Nalco
When I came to Mainland China in 1995, the first job was training manager. So far, ROI is hard to be de-
fined. During that period, even in interview, when the applicants asked about company’s welfare policies,
they would ask about training. That means they regard training a sort of welfare. As a water treatment com-
pany that highly appreciate technical skills, our new staff are hired by different functional teams: e.g. sales
and technicians. For example, a new sales person gets no sales bonus. New employees get trained for half
a year or even 9 months. They are stationed on-site half time and spend the other half tie in office. Only the
supervisors regard the person qualified to produce per the assessment criteria, that individual is supposed
to get bonus based on the performance. That linkage drive them work harder and enthusiastically. It is hard
to establish a completely “fair” evaluation policy. All is measured by KIPs which are subjective indicators to
be appraised as objectively as possible.. The standards stuck in impasse has to be correct or wrong, thus
impasse and debates increase too. What we need is a universal framework and basic principles applicable to all organizations.
Mr. Jun-De Yan, Deputy General Manager from Juki China
From a general managers’ point of view, the HR issues raised by attendees are a little
bit detailed. Our companies’ characters are different, and we are in different industries, it
is impossible to reach consensus. I would propose that Prof. Zhang set basic guidelines
and models for training from an academic angle. HR provide massive statistics to sum-
marize verify. That motivates our passion and reach consensus. We can research and
investigate from our own expertise. Effects will gradually emerge and influence other
regions and even the whole country. At this moment, general discussions are hard to be
Page 9 人力资源从业者公会（筹） No. 201003
Mr. Jason Yang (Qun-Sheng Yang), HR Director-AP from Arvin Meritor
To quantify is possible. The linchpin is how much time and efforts that the organization is willing to invest.
My company produces vehicle components, CI (Continuous Improvement) is much critical. That is mainly
for workflow, which is certainly quantifiable. We are getting down to it. Therefore we train the staff as soon
as they are hired, teaching them many tools. They select a subject after the training. If the elements
shown on the teaching materials could be improved, it could be quantified as well. It is possible to quan-
tify the effects of social skills and leadership, such as the training for team leaders.
Certainly there are other considerations, for instance, compensation and other factors will enhance the
effectiveness. However, while quantifying training analysis, we should eliminate those irrelevant issues.
Surveys could be an approach for staff to pick out the irrelevant elements then generate quantification the
weightings of the relevant issues. The problem is the degree of relevance, and secondly, the weighting. The model is feasible, but
it needs numerous cases, data and analysis. If there are enough organizations to put the data together, we can then find out one
index is correlated to another. The progress of the employee’s satisfaction might not come from the leadership training, it might
be the subsequence of HR management and some Policies.
The questionnaires that we design have certain pertinence: for example, there is survey of leaders’ behaviors for leadership train-
ing. That is for investigating the impact of the leader’s impact on the employees. However, that sort of methodology is costly.
Mr. Michael Chen (Lei Chen), HR Director from MeziMedia
The core issue that we were discussing is not how to quantify the training outcomes, but how to conduct
performance evaluations for training. There are difficulties in performance evaluation itself. The quantifiable
stuff have been quantified, while the others unquantifiable we shouldn’t quantify them deliberately.
We have performance score card in organizations. For sales and production, their behavior is simple, and
we can quantify the results. However, for non-profit centers, such as R&D, administration, finance and etc,
the behaviors are complicated. Therefore, it is a difficult problem to quantify that.
Another problem that we are having is quantification for performance. That is concept difficult to reach, so
coaching is necessary. It could take rather long time for training to produce ROI, but is comparatively
measurable. Training is not omnipotent. The linchpin lies in the policy to support trainings after it’s con-
ducted. To change the behavior is the gist. There should be policies for performance appraisal. To quantify
the training outcomes is not our ultimate goal, it is good enough to be measurable.
The effect of training is not only measured by fortune and money. What we Working Plan of April-May for the Drafting Committee
need is standards of visible impression that can be applied universally. We
need something of process: for example, some job evaluation tools designed
by renowned consulting firms consist the factors mostly related with business
operations and related with the position’s value, and those factors are com- Deadline Contents Participants
monly recognized by the There is no absolute standards in the world. We need April, 2010 Nominated name list The Drafting Commit-
a standardized model. Through the evaluation methodology recognized by of the founding mem- tee
most people. Process is something of universality. While mathematical bench- bers
mark needs numerous numbers to support, and then we can see the correla- May, 2010 To draft the charters The Drafting Commit-
tion through statistics. Someone should write down drafts, and he Drafting of HASA tee
Committee should review and raise advice. Finally, the standards approved by
the Founding Members Conference will represent some industrial trends at June, 2010 Review of the nomi- The Founding Mem-
quite large extent. Though we can not represent the whole industry, but most nated name list of the bers Conference
of our organizations are taking leading roles either in the specific industry or founding members
even in the world, possessing substantial market shares. Additionally, the out- June, 2010 Review of the charters The Founding Mem-
comes obtained through our professional research & studies will be influential of HASA bers Conference
to other SMEs. That is how the market runs, which will be helpful to the next
generation of HR practitioners and to improve management as well. July, 2010 To run legal formali- The Preparatory
ties for sanction Committee