Information economics in practice - Guest lecture Erasmus University Rotterdam


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Slides of my guest lecture at Erasmus University Rotterdam on the value of IT: costs, benefits and benchmarking.

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  • My name, where I work. Goal of today’s lecture: What do organizations do with information economics in practice? Some examples today of my experience as consultant: benchmarking! (Students with busy courses, a lot of work.) Today no complex theory, but lots of practical examples. Two times 45 minutes, 15 minute break. Ask questions or make remarks at any time. Ask if you want to skip something, or know more. Some may be parked for later. I will ask you a # of questions during this lecture. Your input and interaction is appreciated, but if you want I can also broadcast for 90 minutes. Is easier for me, no difficult questions I may not have an answer to.
  • Foreign exchange students? Students from HBO? Students with working experience in the field of informatics or economics? (Rest = Dutch, regular program )
  • Computer Science and Interactive Multimedia at the Hogeschool Rotterdam and Academy of Arts. Internschip in Delft and at Aruba. Graduated in 2000. Worked as Software Engineer for some years at Devote, Ordina. 2001 and 2002 .com bubble burst, no interesting work, no challenge. What to do? Make the best of it for 1 year, then decided to study again. New bachelor/master structure made that easier. Found a company willing to hire me part time: Zappwerk. Egon introduced me at M&/Partners. Did an internship for my master’s thesis in 2007. Have been working at M&I/Partners over a year, graduated for informatics & economics in may of this year. Master’s thesis project is one of the subjects for today.
  • Suppose you own a car. What costs do you have? Buying (depreciation), insurance, gas, road taxes, repairs, APK, damage (own risk) Which are periodic? Which are one-time? All costs together: TCO for a car..
  • Woonstad Rotterdam: merger of DNU and WBR
  • What can you conclude from this picture? Who is doing better? Results of the benchmark are only a means to start the discussion inside an organization and between organizations. You have to know the story behind each picture in order to know if you should change something or can improve. The benchmark outcome is not a grade. This notion is incorporated into the benchmark process: central meetings with all participants having discussions, being structured and supported by us. Each year a specific, highly relevant theme is included, to further develop the information exchange between associations and the mind set of participating employees.
  • Some explanations found in measurement of IT organization maturity and functionality Other explanations found in the interactive sessions between participants: Economies of scale, number and functionality of applications, quality of IT, outsource or not, innovator or laggard, technical choices, number of locations, number of employees But the participants asked for more..
  • Mistaken assumption: more functionality means more benefits (compare to Microsoft Word: 90% of functionality is not used)
  • Mistaken assumption: scoring better on the maturity scale (CobiT) means more benefits from IT (but the more mature, the more formalized, less flexible and more predictable the IT process is, but is this always in the best interest of the organization?)
  • Who has read Van Reeken’s article on Bedell? Has anyone used it in the assignment? What do you think?
  • Explain model.. So in order to use the method, we need to: Identify business processes, sub processes, information systems Determine the organizational goals, business process targets and user targets Consider differences in viewpoints between users, providers and personal interests contary to organizational interests
  • Developed together with # of housing associations + sub processes identified
  • Any ideas why housing associations do not want to? Pricing Taken time/effort Results are insufficient, what does it tell them. Housing associations not ready: no internal discussion and view on the topic, so comparing to other organizations is not yet relevant. Using a method creates its own dynamics in an organization: the method is also an actor in the network (see Menno Nijlands PhD research) Method for internal use, in the process of defining information plan, is seen.
  • As with most large projects in life: it is good not to know in advance what you are getting into (.. or you will not even start). Compare e.g. to redecorating your house. Do not worry about the limitations of your research, just be open and fair about them. (it is recommended to discuss this with your supervisor along the way) Field research will take longer than expected (even if you expect this). Take the summer holiday period in regard when planning your interviews. How to plan writing? 5 chapters, 5 months for research = 1 chapter per month vs. you have the best understanding and overview of the problem at the end of your research. Trying to finish thesis while working in a new job is generally not advised. Choose a topic you like and want to know more about. Keep your eyes on the prize. At some point getting your degree will be the only motivation to continue.
  • Reflection! What did you think of this course? Do you like the subject? Did you learn something? Something for use in practice? Can you do something with it? Suggestions for improving this lecture? What would you like to see added, or what can I skip?
  • Information economics in practice - Guest lecture Erasmus University Rotterdam

    1. 1. Information Economics in practice.. Diderik van Wingerden , consultant December 8, 2010
    2. 2. Before we start.. <ul><li>Please hand in your assignments. </li></ul>
    3. 3. <ul><li>Introduction </li></ul><ul><ul><li>You, me and M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>IT TCO benchmarking </li></ul><ul><ul><li>The yearly benchmarks of M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Benchmarking IT benefits </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Work in progress </li></ul></ul>Contents
    4. 4. Introduction: you
    5. 5. Introduction: me
    6. 6. Introduction: M&I/Partners <ul><li>Independent consultancy for management & IT </li></ul><ul><li>60 consultants </li></ul><ul><li>Office at Amersfoort </li></ul><ul><li>Knowledge areas: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Business & IT (e.g. IT Economics, IT Architecture) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Information management (e.g. content management) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>IT-infrastructures (e.g. application integration) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>& more.. (e.g. IT and law, sourcing, etc.) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Clients: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Ministries (e.g. Home Office) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Financial (e.g. Delta Lloyd Groep, ABN Amro) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Municipalities (e.g. Rotterdam, Amsterdam) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Public Order & Safety (e.g. NATO, Defence, Police) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Trade and industry (e.g. Havenbedrijf R’dam, Philips, HP) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Education (e.g. Saxion, University of Delft, ROC) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Cure (e.g. hospitals, EHR) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Website: </li></ul>
    7. 7. <ul><li>Introduction </li></ul><ul><ul><li>You, me and M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>IT TCO benchmarking </li></ul><ul><ul><li>The yearly benchmarks of M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Benchmarking IT benefits </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Work in progress </li></ul></ul>Contents
    8. 8. Typical questions of managers <ul><li>How much money do we spend on IT? </li></ul><ul><li>Whereof do these IT-expenditures exist? </li></ul><ul><li>What is the benefit of the use of IT for me? </li></ul><ul><li>How does pricing of IT-services within my organization compare to other organizations? </li></ul>
    9. 9. Cost management activities Source: Van Maanen and Berghout, 2001
    10. 10. IT TCO benchmarking <ul><li>Managers would like insight into their organization’s IT costs and how this compares to other organizations. </li></ul><ul><li>Any ideas on how to do this? </li></ul>
    11. 11. TCO <ul><li>What is TCO? </li></ul>
    12. 12. Total cost of ownership (TCO) is.. <ul><li>Definition of costs (Van Maanen & Berghout 2001) </li></ul><ul><li>‘… the financial representation of the sacrifices an organization makes in order to produce.’ </li></ul><ul><li>Definition of TCO of an information system (Van Maanen & Berghout 2001) </li></ul><ul><ul><li>‘… all costs associated with owning and using the information </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>system throughout its life cycle.’ </li></ul></ul><ul><li>All costs includes: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Onetime investment </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Implementation costs </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Annual operational costs during the life cycle </li></ul></ul>
    13. 13. Benchmarking <ul><li>What is benchmarking? </li></ul>
    14. 14. Benchmarking is.. <ul><li>Taking “snap-shots” </li></ul><ul><li>Finding “best practices” </li></ul><ul><li>Some definitions: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>“ [..] a process that helps agencies to find high performance levels (benchmarks) in other organizations and learn enough about how they are achieving those levels so the practice or process producing the performance can be applied in one’s own agency.” (Keehley in Nelissen and De Goede 1999) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>“ The core of benchmarking: learning about your own organization through other organizations.” (Van Eekeren 2003) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Identify  Measure  Compare  Analyse  Improve! </li></ul>
    15. 15. Benchmarking characteristics, goals and conditions for success Source: Spendolini in Van Der Zee 2001
    16. 16. Benchmarking variants <ul><li>Internal vs. external organizations </li></ul><ul><li>Within the industry or outside the industry </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Look at other industries for competitive advantages </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Standard vs. customization </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Adjust starting-points or definitions </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Private parties vs. (semi) public </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Competition </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Anonymous vs. known </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Known: maximal learning experience </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Passive vs. active </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Support on the process of interpretation & explanation </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>findings </li></ul></ul>Source: McGonagle & Fleming, New Options In Benchmarking. Journal for Quality and Participation, 1998
    17. 17. Why should you use TCO / benchmarking? <ul><li>Know your position </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Test for industry conformity </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Compare </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Gives insight in own costs versus other’s costs </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Improve </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Learn from each other </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Insight into organizational aspects </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Organization of IT-department (centralized, decentralized) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Outsourcing </li></ul></ul>
    18. 18. Where does benchmarking fit in? Full life cycle management for IT (Berghout and Nijland 2002)
    19. 19. IT <ul><li>And now an easy one.. </li></ul><ul><li>What is IT? </li></ul>
    20. 20. IT is.. <ul><li>&quot;the study, design, development, implementation, support or management of computer-based information systems, particularly software applications and computer hardware.“ </li></ul>Source: Wikipedia, Information Technology Association of America (ITAA)
    21. 21. But for today IT in an organization is.. <ul><li>IT-management </li></ul><ul><li>PC-Workplace </li></ul><ul><li>LAN (local area network) </li></ul><ul><li>WAN (wide area network) </li></ul><ul><li>Applications and data processing </li></ul><ul><li>Speech facilities </li></ul><ul><li>And for each of those: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Hardware </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Software </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Personnel </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Other </li></ul></ul>
    22. 22. In practice: the M&I/Partners IT benchmarks <ul><li>Housing associations, municipalities, hospitals, … </li></ul><ul><li>Yearly since 2002, following financial control cycle </li></ul><ul><li>Model is 80% identical over industries </li></ul><ul><li>Measures: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>IT costs (TCO) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Functionality </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>IT process maturity (CobiT) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Anonymous reports, non-anonymous meetings </li></ul><ul><li>Past two years: work on “benefits” side </li></ul><ul><li>For today: focus on wTCO, housing associations </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Benchmarks 35% of industry (measured in rentable units) </li></ul></ul>
    23. 23. What is a housing association? <ul><li>In Dutch: “woningcorporatie” </li></ul><ul><li>Builds, lets, sells, maintains homes </li></ul><ul><li>Social housing, public mission </li></ul><ul><li>Area of Rotterdam: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Woonstad Rotterdam (49.000 Rentable Units, RU’s) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Com.wonen (30.000 RU’s) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Woningstichting PWS (15.000 RU’s) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Woonbron (50.000 RU’s) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Vestia (80.000 RU’s) </li></ul></ul>
    24. 24. Example result: IT costs / Rentable Unit
    25. 25. wTCO: benchmarking 40 housing corporations <ul><li>Scope of the benchmark: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>ICT costs (90%) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Functionality (5%) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>IT process maturity (5%) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Objects of measurement </li></ul><ul><li>Categories of IT costs (for each object) </li></ul><ul><li>Measurement method (for each category of each object) </li></ul><ul><li>Way of reporting </li></ul>
    26. 26. Objects of measurement <ul><li>IT-management </li></ul><ul><li>PC-Workplace </li></ul><ul><li>LAN (local area network) </li></ul><ul><li>WAN (wide area network) </li></ul><ul><li>Applications and data processing </li></ul><ul><li>Speech facilities </li></ul>
    27. 27. Type of IT costs and measurement <ul><li>IT cost categories per object: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Hardware </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Software </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Personnel </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Other </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Measures for each category in each object: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Investment </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Depreciation </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Exploitation </li></ul></ul>
    28. 28. TCO in a Rubik's Cube <ul><li>IT Objects: </li></ul><ul><li>ICT-management </li></ul><ul><li>PC-Workplace </li></ul><ul><li>LAN </li></ul><ul><li>WAN </li></ul><ul><li>Applications </li></ul><ul><li>Speech facilities </li></ul><ul><ul><li>IT cost categories: </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Hardware </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Software </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Personnel </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Other </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Cost measurement: </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Investment </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Depreciation </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Exploitation </li></ul></ul>
    29. 29. And some additional indicators for calculation.. <ul><li>Number of Rentable Units (RU) </li></ul><ul><ul><li>(Verhuurbare Eenheden, VHE) </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Total revenue </li></ul><ul><li>Locations </li></ul><ul><li>FTE total, FTE IT-department </li></ul><ul><li>Number of PC’s/PC-workplaces </li></ul>
    30. 30. .. give a total of 11 different diagrams
    31. 31. But there’s more.. <ul><li>Measurement of functionality </li></ul><ul><ul><li>3 diagrams </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Measurement of IT process maturity </li></ul><ul><ul><li>9 diagrams </li></ul></ul><ul><li>+ individual diagrams for each participant </li></ul><ul><li>Now what? What are we going to do with all of this? </li></ul>
    32. 32. IT costs / PC-workplace
    33. 33. Industry average: IT cost per object
    34. 34. Industry average: IT cost per category
    35. 35. IT costs as % of revenue
    36. 36. What does this all mean in practice? <ul><li>Get participants </li></ul><ul><li>Send Excel sheet to all participants for data gathering </li></ul><ul><li>Drive around the Netherlands to interview 40 housing associations </li></ul><ul><li>Create report using MySQL, PHP, Excel and Word </li></ul><ul><li>Interactive sessions with all participants </li></ul><ul><li>Report is used by each participant as they like </li></ul><ul><li>Start over </li></ul>
    37. 37. Excel sheet: contact details
    38. 38. Excel sheet: IT costs of applications
    39. 39. Interactive sessions
    40. 40. Conclusion <ul><li>Would you participate if you were a manager? </li></ul>
    41. 41. Conclusions <ul><li>TCO & benchmarking are improvement methods for an organization </li></ul><ul><li>They can be used to gain insight in costs and control </li></ul><ul><li>Based on the findings you can formulate measures for improvement for your organization </li></ul><ul><li>In order to realize actual effect with benchmarking, you have to know the story behind the numbers! </li></ul><ul><li> Benchmark results are only a means to start talking to each other! </li></ul>
    42. 42. Let’s have a break
    43. 43. <ul><li>Introduction </li></ul><ul><ul><li>You, me and M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>IT TCO benchmarking </li></ul><ul><ul><li>The yearly benchmarks of M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Benchmarking IT benefits </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Work in progress </li></ul></ul>Contents
    44. 44. Other typical questions of managers <ul><li>(Especially those participating in the IT benchmarks) </li></ul><ul><li>What causes the differences in IT cost levels? </li></ul><ul><li>Now I know the costs, but what are the benefits? </li></ul><ul><li>How much value do we get from our IT? </li></ul><ul><li>Does an organization with a lower IT costs level do better than an organization with a high level? </li></ul><ul><li>Or is a high level justified when the benefit is also higher? </li></ul>
    45. 45. The challenge <ul><li>“ Develop an instrument to measure and compare IT benefits between organizations.” </li></ul><ul><ul><li>a n “IT benefit” counterpart of the existing “IT cost” focus </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Any ideas on how to do this? </li></ul>
    46. 46. IT benefits <ul><li>What are IT benefits? </li></ul>
    47. 47. Some benefits of IT.. Provide customers with unique value proposition Permit new business models Build barriers to industry Increased agility Increased productivity Improved quality at reduced cost Improved turnaround time Reduced headcount Employee self-service Reduction in property costs Automation Keeping up with competition Bargaining power
    48. 48. Measuring IT benefits <ul><li>Why is it difficult to measure IT benefits? </li></ul>
    49. 49. The complexity of IT benefits
    50. 50. But also.. <ul><li>Lack of data recorded in the organization </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Especially non-financial data </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>No baselines </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Is dependent of many other factors (gearbox dilemma) </li></ul><ul><li>IT value ends up outside of the organization </li></ul><ul><li>Risk and chance are also involved </li></ul><ul><li>Experiments and R&D are necessary </li></ul><ul><li>Project success is in the eye of the beholder </li></ul>
    51. 51. The gearbox dilemma
    52. 52. Some approaches we are working on <ul><li>As mentioned earlier: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Functionality </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>IT process maturity </li></ul></ul><ul><li>And some more: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Quality in business process (my Master’s thesis) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Degree of coverage </li></ul></ul><ul><li> What (mistaken) assumptions do we make? </li></ul>
    53. 53. Functionality IT cost per rentable unit IS functionality score
    54. 54. IT process maturity IT cost per rentable unit IS maturity score
    55. 55. IT process maturity (2)
    56. 56. Quality in business process: Bedell revisited <ul><li>Do you know the method of Bedell? </li></ul>
    57. 57. The method of Bedell <ul><li>Organizational importance of information systems </li></ul><ul><li>vs. </li></ul><ul><li>Quality of information systems </li></ul>
    58. 58. The quality model Source: Van der Pijl (1994)
    59. 59. Business processes for housing associations <ul><li>For each: </li></ul><ul><li>Strategic importance </li></ul><ul><li>Operational importance </li></ul>
    60. 60. Information systems of housing associations <ul><li>Digitale woningplattegronden </li></ul><ul><li>Document Informatie Systeem (DIS) </li></ul><ul><li>Financiële meerjarenplanning </li></ul><ul><li>Financiële administratie </li></ul><ul><li>Geografisch Informatie Systeem (GIS) </li></ul><ul><li>Huuradministratie </li></ul><ul><li>Inkoopadministratie </li></ul><ul><li>Kennismanagementsysteem </li></ul><ul><li>Klanten Informatie Systeem </li></ul><ul><li>Klein dagelijks onderhoud </li></ul><ul><li>Management Informatie Systeem (MIS/DWH) </li></ul><ul><li>Meerjaren onderhoud </li></ul><ul><li>Nieuwbouwprojecten </li></ul><ul><li>Planmatig onderhoud </li></ul><ul><li>Salaris systeem / personeelssysteem </li></ul><ul><li>Strategisch voorraad beheer (SVB) </li></ul><ul><li>Treasury </li></ul><ul><li>VVE-beheer </li></ul><ul><li>Website, Intranet, Extranet </li></ul><ul><li>Woningcartotheek </li></ul><ul><li>Woonruimtebemiddeling en -verdeling </li></ul><ul><li>Workflow Management (WFM) </li></ul><ul><li>For each: </li></ul><ul><li>Supports which process(es)? </li></ul><ul><li>4 quality indicators: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Effectiveness </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>User satisfaction </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Efficiency </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Up-to-date </li></ul></ul>
    61. 61. Results: the “IT benefit house” EIA: effectiveness of IS
    62. 62. Combine with TCO: added IT costs / RU
    63. 63. Zooming in to the business processes + 6 more..
    64. 64. Some approaches we are working on <ul><li>As mentioned earlier: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Functionality </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>IT process maturity </li></ul></ul><ul><li>And some more: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Quality in business process (my Master’s thesis) </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Degree of coverage </li></ul></ul>
    65. 65. Degree of coverage <ul><li>For general hospitals: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>EMR coverage </li></ul></ul><ul><li>For municipalities: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>NUP coverage </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Citizen service coverage </li></ul></ul>
    66. 66. EMR coverage Usage (%) Functionality (%)
    67. 67. NUP coverage
    68. 68. Citizen service coverage
    69. 69. The outcome.. <ul><li>Are these useful additions to the IT TCO benchmarks? </li></ul>
    70. 70. Conclusions <ul><li>Functionality: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>End-of-life </li></ul></ul><ul><li>IT process maturity: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Very useful for internal discussion and goal setting </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Quality in business process: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Master’s thesis successfully completed </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Insufficient participants to do 1 st round benchmark  Why? </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Degree of coverage: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Pragmatic and easy to understand </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Nobody has a definitive answer (yet) </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Both in academic research and in real-life organizations </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Measuring IT benefits is very complex! </li></ul><ul><li> Work in progress! </li></ul>
    71. 71. Some notions worth mentioning <ul><li>What I learnt from my master’s thesis project: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Just like renovating your house: it’s best not to know in advance what you will be getting into. Deal with it along the way. </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Do not worry about the limitations of your research, just be open and fair about them. </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Field research will take longer than expected (even if you expect this). Important factor: summer holiday period. </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>How to plan writing? </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><ul><li>1 chapter / month vs. you know best at the end </li></ul></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Pick a topic you like and want to know (a lot) more about. </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Keep your eyes on the prize. </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Finishing your thesis while working in a new job is not advised. </li></ul></ul>
    72. 72. Almost done.. <ul><li>This presentation will be available on Blackboard </li></ul><ul><li>More information: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>IT TCO benchmarks: </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>Master’s thesis: </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Internship or job as (junior) consultant? </li></ul><ul><ul><li> </li></ul></ul><ul><li>Or contact me: </li></ul><ul><ul><li>Diderik van Wingerden, consultant at M&I/Partners </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>@diderikvw </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li>[email_address] </li></ul></ul><ul><ul><li> </li></ul></ul>
    73. 73. If time permits..