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Why bother with Value Networks


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This is a transcript of a Business901 Podcast with Verna Allee on Value Networks and the true nature of collaboration.

This is a transcript of a Business901 Podcast with Verna Allee on Value Networks and the true nature of collaboration.

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  • 1. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Why bother with Value Networks? Guest was Verna Allee Related Podcast: What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsVerna Allee has more than twenty years ofdeep experience in value networks,intangibles, knowledge management,intellectual capital, and new business models,Verna has been a trusted advisor to more than100 Fortune 1000 companies, governmentagencies, civil society organizations, andstartups, focusing the power of intangiblevalue for increased efficiency and competitiveadvantage.She began her management career in the late 1970s as co-founder of a networked sign manufacturing company. Frustratedby organizational complexity in her early corporate experiences,she organized the new company as a value network – a radicalidea at the time. Within five years, the company was handlinglarge installations from Alaska to Florida. Determined to carry herinsights into global companies, and drawing on consultingexperience in the early 1990s, Verna developed the ValueNetWorks® methodology, a cornerstone in the field that intersectsbusiness process and human networks.Verna Allee is the author of three books and more than 50industry articles and papers on value networks and knowledgemanagement, and is a popular keynote speaker at businessconferences around the world. She is a Fellow of the WorldBusiness Academy, an advisor to the European Commission, andsits on a number of Advisory Boards including the Enterprise ofthe Future project at George Washington University, the NorvalMorris Project with the U.S. Department of Justice, and atelevision series on PBS.Veran Allee can be found at What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe Dager: Welcome everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host ofthe Business901 podcast. With me today is Verna Allee. Vernahas more than 20 years of deep experience in value networks,intangibles, knowledge management, and new business models.She is also cofounder and CEO of Value Networks. Gartner is a cool vendor in 2009 and to start thispodcast off, Verna, could you explain to me what is a coolvendor?Verna Allee: Those are vendors that Gartner sees as up andcoming vendors or up and coming technologies that are trendingtowards where they believe the future is going to lie.Joe: How did you get started in knowledge management andknowledge networks? Did you always want to be a knowledgemanagement expert?Verna: Actually, I had two passions. One was understandinghow businesses went together, how the whole thing works, andthe other passion was intelligence and particularly collectiveintelligence. How, we understand something one way, learnsomething different, and begin to see the world differently.So my advanced degree is actually in the study of humanconsciousness with a specialization in organizational leadership.I was attracted to organizational development because I thoughtthey addressed those questions and, much to my surprise I foundthat, for the most part, they didnt. There was an awful lot aboutgroup behaviors back in the days of vision, mission, gettingpeople sort of on the same page, but no one was really askingthe kinds of questions that I was interested in and then Idiscovered a few people were.There was a community of practice that started with the questionnot of knowledge management, but they started with the reallyintriguing question of how is value really created? These were a What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsgroup of people that were focusing on the very new concepts inthe 1990s of intangibles and intellectual capital and from thatbusiness foundation they said, "Oh, what we really need to payattention to in order to be successful and create value and growour intangible assets is the way people create and shareknowledge."A lot of people in the KM field didnt really catch that part of theequation, that the reason to focus on knowledge is not forknowledges sake, but to create value within the company and forothers, such as customers and stakeholders.So thats how I moved into KM. It wasnt just KM. In fact, Ivenever actually called myself a knowledge managementconsultant. I just think I help people do business better andknowledge is one of those questions, along with intangibles andrelationships and processes, that we need to pay attention to.Joe: You wrote several books on knowledge management?Verna: Yes. One of the early books out, when I was writing the"Knowledge Evolution" in 1996, there were only about three otherbooks that were of interest and relevant. One was Nonaka andTakeuchis book on "The Knowledge Creating Company", one wasDorothy Leonards book on the "Wellsprings of Knowledge", andthe great Peter Druckers "Post-Capitalist Society" and other thanthat in 1996 there were less than a 100 articles anywhere in thebusiness press on the topics of knowledge in organization,intangibles, intellectual capital, any of that. There was virtuallynothing, even in the psychology literature, on group intelligenceor collective intelligence.Joe: Knowledge management seemed to be a pretty big buzzword in the late 90s and maybe the early part of 2000-2003, inthat range, but it seemed that its died out a little bit. Has it orhas it just involved in different words or is it still alive and well? What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsVerna: Its still alive and well, but its gone mainstream. Usuallywhen something is a big buzzword and really hot topic its newand youre trying to get people to understand what the issue isand that was what the work was in the 1990s.Knowledge? What are you talking about? Knowledgemanagement? Why should I care about that? But it becameobvious so quickly that this really is a critical aspect of howbusiness works that it really has gone mainstream.You dont necessarily find any more knowledge managementdepartments or rather knowledge officers. The work of KM hasreally become everybodys work, so you find parts of it in IT,parts of it in HR. Some aspect of knowledge management hasmore or less become foundational for any good managementteam.Joe: So have we gotten better at it then?Verna: Now thats...Joe: I read a statement one time that only 20 percent of theknowledge is actually captured within a company.Verna: Now why would you want any more than that? I meanreally. I look back at what my office looked like 10 years ago andI had huge file cabinets full of documents and articles that Iwould save and I still have the same cabinets, but Im sellingthem back to the office company, the office furniture people,because theyre empty.We dont have to store things nearly as much as we think we do.We can get our hands on things more easily electronically, but Ithink the evolution has been that weve actually let go of what Ithink of the busy work of KM, which is just trying to collectthings. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsI mean, when people talk about capturing all the knowledge in anorganization that makes me feel tired. You know, that feels likework and what weve come to appreciate is that most of theknowledge that we really need travels human to human, that wedo need to access documents and information, absolutely, butwhen it comes to knowledge work, knowledge work is reallylargely executed through conversations and through search.And those we have gotten much, much better at through thesocial media, through conscious conversation and methods suchas knowledge cafes and conversation, and, of course, through thecapacity for search. So I think weve gotten better. Yes, I reallydo. Now that I think about it I would say, "Yes, were doing whatwe need to do."Joe: I think thats a great point because, the other side of that20 percent is that 80 percent of the paper work we would file wenever use again.Verna: Thats right. Thats why we have these little backup harddrives where we dump all of our files in case we ever need themagain and how often do we? Were constantly moving on to newknowledge. What we repurpose are things that we worked onwithin the last two to three years. We dont repurpose materials,as a rule, that are older than that.In many cases, obviously a company that relies on a lot of formsthose forms might endure for a very long time, but they tend tobe the materials that we have used or reused recently. We alwaysgo back to something we worked on, the slide deck that we usedthree months ago, not the one that we used five years ago.Joe: A lot of that work seems to have evolved into ValueNetworks. Can you explain and give a little background on ValueNetworks for me? What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsVerna: Many, many years ago, in the early 90s, I was workingtwo questions. I was working the knowledge question and I wasalso working the business modeling question. The early 90s werethe heyday of process engineering when everybody was modelingthe work as a business process, which is really a great approachand it was a learning curve that we needed to get through. But ifyou think about process, process is basically the industrial ageproduction line, right?Its linear and its mechanistic. Even in the early 90s people werestarting to use computer technologies. Companies that I wasworking with, like Telecoms, were very large and complex. Theyhad working groups, they had project teams, and work was morechaotic than process.So I said, "Well, how can we model the work as a dynamic flowsystem, but still get some rigor behind that?" So I looked atvirtually every modeling method that was out there from systemdynamics to interrelationship diagraphs and context diagram andeven object oriented data analysis.At that time I was helping companies through the benchmarkingphase of very complex reengineering process, through thelearning phase of that. The challenge we were running into waspeople were trying to compare business processes with industriesthat were very unlike their own.So at a level of knowledge complexity, a flow chart is not asystems tool. It doesnt help you understand the whole system, ithelps you understand one process within that system. So I saidhow can I find a modeling approach that will allow us to modelnot just the processes, but their interrelationships and a whole lotmore besides so that we can actually compare one system toanother?So I tinkered and I experimented and I started using what is nowValue Network mapping in its early stages to support What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsbenchmarking projects, to map the activity. I like to use the termactivity now instead of process for a reason.If you think of the term process and you visualize process in yourmind people generally say I see an engineering type schematic, adrawing, a flow chart. If I use the term business activity, theimage that pops in their mind is real people interacting. So canwe model the real activity of people interacting in a way that alsoshows us how the processes are working? Thats how I developedthe modeling method.I realized that even though I was helping people do these mapsto support benchmarking as a way to talk to another industry,people were getting dramatic breakthroughs.One of my favorite stories is a very large Telecom trying toredesign all of technology support worldwide. This was a veryhigh level team and it was in still the early stages, both of myconsulting work and this modeling method. These people came infrom all over the world, corporate headquarters. It was a very bigdeal for me to get this opportunity.So were doing this mapping to try to describe the activity in ageneral way to talk with other companies and all of a sudden theroom goes dead quiet. You could hear a pin drop. And I lookaround at all these guys, and they were all men. This was stillback before women were in the technology field so much. Andthey were all giving each other the look like, "Oh my gosh, doyou see what I see?"I said, "Well, what is it?" One of them finally walked to the mapand he pointed to one area in the network map and he said, "Itsright here." This whole group of people is literally in the way. Ifthey werent there, everything would run smoothly. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsNine months, we never saw this. Weve used every process tool.Weve flow charted, weve scatter-grammed, we fish bombed.Nine months and we never saw this.I said, "Well, that sounds pretty serious because I knew at thelevel we were talking this groups probably hundreds of people."And he said, "Its very serious. Its us. Its our own group." WhatI didnt realize is that was actually what they were looking for isthat kind of breakthrough because they were facing a very, veryserious reorganization. And they did it. They designed themselvesright out of the job.But I thought wow, this has such potential for helping people cutthrough complexity and deal with the real issues. But it was reallyearly. It was in the early 1990s, so I continued to work with itand experiment with it.Then in 1997-98 I was working with Don Tapscott and his groupshowing them how to do this Value Network modeling and wewere very interested in knowledge flows. Knowledgemanagement was a big topic. My new book "The KnowledgeEvolution" in 1997 was one of the big best-sellers in that area.So I got invited into this project and I said wait a minute. I thinkI mapped knowledge plays and I went back to this modeling andfound that it worked not just for the formal transactions of theprocess interactions, but also to depict the way specific kinds ofknowledge, information, and intangible run through the activity.Thats where it really came together and then I started calling itValue Network analysis because I was able to link thoseknowledge flows into intangible asset management as the enginefor creating value.But what happened in that period was, it brought together thebest that we understood about knowledge and knowledge flowsand the importance of human to human knowledge. It bought What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemstogether the process management and engineering concepts thatwere so critical for productivity. It brought together the intangibleasset management and dynamic pull systems as a way to modelall of this.So I was very excited about it, but it was still too early as far asthe market, so I didnt start publishing about it until the early2000. But thats how it came together and I see it as thetrending. I saw the potential for it and now people are reallystarting to really gravitate towards it as the importance of valuecreating in networks is really coming to the forefront.Joe: Is it something difficult to learn or for a company to startlooking at things this way?Verna: People can actually learn the basics of value networkmodeling in about three hours and very quickly start mappingtheir own activities. The reason for this is the basic modelingelements are very simply. Theres only three.The first is the node in the network. Nodes are roles. Real peoplewho are executing roles, make decisions, and initiate action. Sohow is a role different than a job title? A job title might beTechnician Level Three, but the roles that you play on a dailybasis can be many different roles. In one activity you might be aproject manager. In another role you might be a designer. Youmight have a role as an expeditor in another activity. So this iswhat we capture in the activities. What is the role you play in thisactivity? And thats the node.So whenever we do something we activate those roles. I alwayslike to use the example of people running down to the river whenthe river is flooding. They dont sit down and draw up anorganization chart and they dont do a process flow diagram.They pick roles. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsIll be a shoveler, Ill be a bag holder, Ill be a traffic controller, Illbe a food provider, and they very quickly negotiate how theyregoing to work together from that role perspective.So from the role perspective, what we have is the second elementof what do we provide to each other and we call that thedeliverable. So what do I deliver to you and what do you deliverto me? We diagram those with the third element, which is adirectional arrow.So we have the node, which is a real person providing somethingand we show that its moving with the arrow and the little labelon the arrow is what it is exactly.So lets get back to that issue of knowledge. If I told you, Joe, todeliver knowledge to our colleague Dave could you do that?Joe: I could probably tell him something and give him some typeof knowledge, I would hope.Verna: There you go. So that knowledge is too big. If I askedyou to tell our friend Dave how to get to your house, directions toyour house, that you can do, correct?Joe: Sure.Verna: When we deliver knowledge to each other its alwaysvery specific, whether we realize it or not. It can be a message.The form doesnt matter. It can be physical, non-physical. We cangive them as directions by email, by telephone, by carrier pigeon,but the deliverable, our directions, is directions to your house.When we model business activity we get into the very specifickinds of exchanges that are critical for success and we define twotypes of exchanges. We call them tangible or intangible.Tangibles are those things that are formal, contractual. If youdont do these somebodys going to want their money back. The What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsthings you must do, the value that must be delivered. We alsoare modeling all of those intangibles or informal exchanges thatreally build relationships and help things run smoothly. That iswhat is missing from process modeling.Process modeling focuses only on the formal transactions andwith value network modeling were saying its the people thatmake things work, so its not enough just to have the formaltransactions. We also need to understand the dynamics of thoserelationships and what is critical for this activity.Joe: When I listen to you talk I relate it to lean so much becausewhen people look at lean they look at it as a tool type thing, notrecognizing its a culture and its really a people thing. Its thebest methodology I know that looks at things from a peopleperspective because one of the big lean things, or even theToyota culture, is learn by doing. That sounds similar.Verna: Actually, we do a lot of work with Boeing. Boeing is avery heavy user of value network modeling and they call it a leanplus tool. So they say, "This is what you do before you do thedeeper dive into the other lean approaches." So theyve actuallypositioned it as lean at Boeing and its worked very, very well.A number of the Value Network facilitators and modelers actuallycome from the lean organization. Its an enhancement andbecause we have the formal transactions it captured everything,and let me relate this a bit to Dave Snowden and his focus onstorytelling, once you have everything captured you should beable to tell the story of that value network.So if we actually went back and asked, "Well what typically setsoff activity in this network?" You can actually trace the storythrough every single transaction and every activity has a differentpattern. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsAt Boeing, one of the major reorganizations they did was anin-flight test evaluation and once we had the basic model of howwe thought the new value network should work. They ranscenarios. They got two engineers together whod been testingairplanes for 38 years and they said, "OK, think of a scenario thatmight happen around an airplane and lets test fly this valuenetwork." They were able to literally trace the story of everysingle situation through the value network.Now, heres the difference: with process and lean youre trying tofind the one best path, the one perfect path that everyone shouldfollow. With value network modeling what youre trying to do iscreate a robust and resilient network that can handle multiplepathways that can handle anything you throw at it.So you have a very, very different philosophy. I think this issomething people need to understand when they think aboutbusiness modeling is there are many situations. No two airplanesare alike and no two come into testing alike. One could have, youknow, wing damage, another may have an electronic challenge,and another one might be an old model with missing parts.Maybe another one the paperwork is not quite right and its moreof a paperwork problem than anything else.So theyre going to take different pathways through that valuenetwork. Weve all seen pictures of brain scans. Your brain isactivated differently according to what it is youre trying to do. Soif you listen to music your brain is activated in one kind ofpattern. If you are dancing you have a different pattern and ifyou are sleeping its quite a different pattern still.I think of the value network modeling as something that allows usto understand the pattern of different activities within the sameorganization or within the same basic value network structure.Its a very, very different way of thinking about productivity. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: You published a book on the web thats about this andthats for anyone to use?Verna: Thats right. We just published in March of 2011 trying todecide what do I want to do? Methodology books are very difficultto get published. Its not the Harvard Business Group kind ofpublication. This was more of a how-to guide to do the modelingin value network analysis.I went around the world talking with different people. I realizedthat in traditional publishing you publish one book in onelanguage. It can take a year, a year and a half to get a bookpublished and I realized that if we did this as a web book then wecould actually use the Google translate widget and instead ofpublishing in one language it would be available in 52 languages.So I loved the idea. Its not the kind of book that you make tonsof money off of anybody and also having grown up poor. Im a bitof a maniac on people being able to access good things whenthey dont have a lot of money. You know, working in India andBrazil, different places, our website gets hit by over 90 countriesevery month and a lot of those are third world countries and youknow people dont have resources to buy expensive US books orEnglish books.So this is really in alignment with my own values and its a way tomake this work accessible to everyone. So were very, verypleased with this response.Joe: Well, I think the wealth of information on it is fantasticbecause thats what attracted me. I was looking for moreinformation about value networks or value networking within thesales and marketing cycles and seeing how co-creation,collaboration and all these buzzwords that we hear nowadays.But, as you said in a discussion before with me, theres not a lotbehind them words. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsVerna: Yes. We use collaboration all the time as if everyoneunderstands what that means, but if you want me to collaborate Ineed to know exactly what you mean by that. Its different withdifferent cultures and even across different organizations.But if you say what I really need from you to build trust istransparency in the budget process, thats something I canactually deliver. I can be held accountable for that. So I cantactually deliver trust to you, but I can deliver our behaviors thatwe can negotiate and define as deliverables in our value network.The book is called "Value Networks and the True Nature ofCollaboration" and its at, soits just a website. But we find that as much as people care aboutcollaboration and use the word, very few people actually have away to define what that is, and particularly, to define the rules ofengagement or the rules of collaboration for this relationship orthis activity.I believe that we need to be explicit about the behaviors andwhat we really need from each other. And this is a way to get tothat without all that undue emphasis on my culture, your culture,this kind of thing. Were just focusing on what we need to besuccessful together in this activity.Joe: When I look at these things, and I looked at valuenetworks, it looked really messy to me. It doesnt seem like I canexplain it to anyone or I can go from step one to step two and getanything done. And it just seems like "OK, were going to leave abunch of free spirits run the company here."Verna: Well you can actually probably say the same thing insystems dynamics modeling or whatever. But what it really is away to negotiate how we work together. No one can manage awhole system. Its sort of the grand myth of managing that youcan somehow manage the whole system. No, we dont. And wecertainly cant administer or manage a network. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 16. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsWhat we manage, very simply, are our own roles. So if we look atit from the perspective of "In my role, I manage my inputs andmy outputs." And when we have a healthy value network, youlook at any given role and the number of inputs and outputs aremanageable. If its too much, youve got a problem. Youve got abottleneck; you need to redesign.We used to think that the more intangibles you have in thenetwork the better it is. But thats not necessarily true. Wevefound in practice that if you have too many intangibles, thatmeans the informal interactions, you probably have people doingworkarounds because your process is broken. We have found thatmore and more.Theres some kind of a healthy ratio of tangibles and intangibles.And when you look at your role, you should be able to say "Oh,thats not so hard. I can do that." If it is overwhelming when youlook at it from where you stand in the network, then you probablyhave some redesigning to do. I always like to say the center ofthe network is where you are.You may need to see that larger picture around you. You mayneed to be able to see out there at the far horizon of the network.But when it comes to practical everyday work, what we manageis simply our own roles. And when people model the network,they negotiate their roles and just what they understand. I dontunderstand everything about how you play your role, but I cannegotiate with you about how you and I interact.Joe: One of the things that we talk a lot about in lean is Kaizenor individual Kaizen and continuous improvement. Continuousimprovement is more about making someone elses job easier.That person is in your line of sight and thats what creates value.And I think value networking lays some basis for that, doesnt it?Verna: Yeah, thats exactly the way to think of it is you think ofwho is in your line of sight. When you map very large, complex What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 17. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsnetworks, the ones that do look so overwhelming to you, and theway those are created typically is we have people just simplymap their neighborhood. What does it look like from where yousit? In your activity and from where you sit, what does yourneighborhood look like?And then we piece together, in our applications, match andmerge the networks, if any two networks share the same role,share a role, you can merge those networks together. So you canactually piece together the entire system of extremely large,complex networks. When people look at it and are trying to use itfrom a practical standpoint what they really do is zero in on theirown neighborhood.Joe: How would you tell someone to get started inunderstanding value networking?Verna: I think the book is actually a good place to start. That isactually what it was designed for is to help people learn to usevalue networks and to learn the basics of it. Weve had prettygood feedback that it is very helpful for that.Many times you learn a method or a technique and people areafraid to use it until they know everything about it. With thevalue network modeling, we actually encourage people to justplay with it. Take an activity youre familiar with and say "Well,what are the five or six roles involved in this and how do theyinteract. Let me see if I can map it out." Theres a chapter onmapping basics, thats the place to start.Just start to work with it a little bit, just to play with it and justtake it a step at a time. When we run a workshop, we have alittle table map that is downloadable from the book called the"ValueNet Map." And we have people run a little exercise on itlike, what are four key roles in innovation and how do peopleinteract? They can master the basic language of the modelingwithin an hour and a half to two hours. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 18. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsThen from there we just have them move right on to saying"Whats the activity youre concerned with? Lets map it out." Itseasy to over complicate things. Because value network modelingdoes have this very solid theory base in intangibles and systemsthinking and dynamics, we can do some very, very sophisticatedthings with it. But that doesnt mean we have to start there.Like for you to become more masterful at lean. The basics of alean diagram are actually pretty simple. But there is a lot thatyou can do with lean as you learn more and more about it. So theimportant thing is to just try it. Just work with it a bit, see if itcan be useful to you and then just go a little bit deeper, a little bitdeeper.But we find that it extends very nicely from five people on a workteam to a project team to a business unit. We have even used itwith global action networks, regional innovation networks andweve even mapped entire industries, like global finance.Joe: Im not a large company. Can I think this way? Can I usevalue networking?Verna: Yes, weve actually worked with a number of smallcompanies and startups. Its a very good way to, when youre...Well, let me put it this way. Whenever youre dealing withsomething new that you have to get a way forward and getorganized. I developed this under the great discipline of gettingto walk into companies I knew nothing about, working onbusiness issues that were new to me with a group of people I hadnever met.In a matter of a very few hours not only had to understand whatthe heck was going on, but help them to gain some insightsthemselves. That was the discipline that drove me to valuenetworks. You use it with whatever is on the table. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 19. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsMy first experience of this was a value network company, was atsign manufacturing, which is one of the classics in all businessesin the U.S. and we built a networked sign manufacturingcompany that in terms of revenue was considered one of thelarge ones in the industry. We had no employees; it wascompletely networked.No matter what business youre in, your success always comesfrom your network. So the more you understand it the moresuccessful youll be.Joe: I think thats so true. Because when you look at creatingknowledge, you very seldom if ever can create knowledge withina vacuum. And by using a value network, it has to be able toprovide a rapid increase in knowledge for you, if you understandthat network, doesnt it?Verna: Right. What youre really trying to do is just have adeeper understanding of how do we work together. How do wereally create value together? How does that work? Thats the onlyquestion youre addressing and thats always a good question toask.Joe: Its a perfect sales solution. Has it been used in the salesand marketing arena?Verna: Absolutely, particularly in complex selling. It helps youunderstand your customer very, very quickly.Joe: Where do value networks differ from other traditionalmethodologies like lean?Verna: Its an integrative method. Theres a chapter in the bookthat specifically addresses how to move from a value networkmodel to a process model. And the other thing I wanted tomention too, now that thats been questioned, theres some very What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 20. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsexciting work going on right now with the OMG standards group,the Object Management Group.Im working with a group of people from the U.S. and Europearound a new standard for a value delivery modeling language.What were doing is we are using the value network language aspart of this so that people can model value and we have astandard for modeling value where people can pull up literallydifferent views of their value creating universe. One of thoseviews would be a value chain view; another view would be avalue network view.Think of this as a lens that integrates and complements otherlenses beautifully. Conceptually, theres nothing incompatible andwere now working out that compatibility at the standards level. Ithink in the next two to three years, two to five years probably,were going to see a lot of technologies that have beenestablished for modeling processes and value chains migratingtowards being able to also model value networks.We need to bring the world of formal interactions and of humaninteractions together. There are a lot of people who are pursuingthis question who see the importance of it and a lot of veryexciting work going on at the standards level to migrate ourmechanistic mindset to again this more dynamic, human-centricview of business.Joe: Is there anything you would like to add to this conversationthat maybe I didnt ask?Verna: I feel like youve asked great questions. Ive enjoyedanswering them enormously. Or responding to them, I shouldsay. This is my new definition of expertise. If youre a novice youhave all the answers. If youre a real expert, you only havequestions. So Im not sure that Ive provided any answers, but Iwould say, it has been great fun responding. I love the questionsand hope to pursue more. What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 21. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: Well, I want to thank you very much and I really appreciateit. I would like for everyone to take a look at website. I think its a greatlearning experience for people. How can someone contact you?Whats the best way if they have interest in learning more?Verna: They can contact me directly through website. They can or What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901
  • 22. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Ph: 260-438-0411 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: Web/Blog: Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joes ability to combine his expertise with "out of thebox" thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, costeffectively and with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure towork with." James R.Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providingdirection in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, ProductLaunches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt, Business901provides and implements marketing, project and performance planningmethodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a single flexible modelwill create clarity for your staff and as a result better execution.An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with aconsulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtualassistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities toplug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. Asproficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting theprocess as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processeswill become a habit and not an event. Business901 Podcast Opportunity Expert Status Marketing with Lean Series of Books What’s behind Collaboration and Value Networks? Copyright Business901