Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems How Lean, Six Sigma and Agile al...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems                        Pat has b...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe Dager: Welcome everyone. This...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemscome in and help that other team ...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsPatrick: Generally, yeah. Most of...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsyou need to have. Without this vi...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsthose Agile practices. We also st...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsstream is and how information and...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsdevelopment side, then were reall...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsAgile field, in the software fiel...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: One of the things that have ...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemstoo many people doing too many th...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsThe measure of efficiency should ...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsScrum team," and obviously thats ...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemswe do sprinkle that out throughou...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsyour design techniques. When your...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsshift on how people do their work...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsreasonably short. We generally ha...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsIf theyre a higher priority on th...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsEvery 24 hours, if not more, beca...
Business901                      Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems                                 ...
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How Lean, Six Sigma and Agile all work under the same umbrella at xerox

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This is a transcription of the podcast, Adding Customer Value in Development at Xerox that featured Patrick Waara talking about Xerox’s use of Agile techniques. Pat has been with Xerox for nearly 25 years teaching Lean, Six Sigma, and Agile techniques to Xerox’s software development community improving their software development capability. Our conversation originally was designed to discuss swarming and Lean problem solving. However we ventured off into the subject of how Lean, Six Sigma and Agile all work under the same umbrella

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Transcript of "How Lean, Six Sigma and Agile all work under the same umbrella at xerox"

  1. 1. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems How Lean, Six Sigma and Agile all work under the same umbrella at Xerox Guest was Patrick Waara of Xerox Corporation Related Podcast: Adding Value in Development Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  2. 2. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Pat has been with Xerox for nearly 25 years. He has both a BS and an MS in computer science from Michigan Technological University. He has held a variety of jobs at Xerox, including developing user interface systems for Xeroxs DocuTech and Systems Architect for Xeroxs iGen3, all dealing with software development and systems. Pat also works at St. Josephs Neighborhood Center, which provides medical, counseling, dental, and social services to the uninsured, where he utilizes his software and Lean Six Sigma skills to support their IT and processinfrastructure that he installed during a Xerox sponsored leave ofabsence. He is currently a Software Design for Lean Six SigmaMaster Black Belt Candidate and a Lean Six Sigma Black BeltCandidate where he is teaching Lean, Six Sigma, and Agiletechniques to Xeroxs software development communityimproving software development capability. Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  3. 3. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe Dager: Welcome everyone. This is Joe Dager, the host ofthe Business901 podcast. With me today is Patrick Waara, who isa Six Sigma black belt candidate at Xerox, and also handlesteaching the software design and Agile methods for the Lean SixSigma candidates. Patrick, could you go ahead and explain yourposition in a little more detail.Patrick Waara: I am a software design for Lean, Six SigmaMaster Black Belt candidate. And what that means is I amteaching software or software engineers agile and lean softwaredevelopment techniques. I do teaching and coaching here withinXerox, trying to improve our software development techniquesand utilizing agile and lean techniques to do that. In parallel tothat, I am also getting my traditional Lean Six Sigma black belt.But, I primarily focus my time working with softwaredevelopment, because my history has always been in productdevelopment, software development.Joe: Well, one of the reasons that brought us to this podcast isduring the development of the Work Center 7545 and the WorkCenter 7556, there was a lot of discussions on the agile part andthe scrum part of the process that you worked on. Could you tellme about some of the things that happened during that project?Patrick: First of all, most of our software developmentorganizations have adopted Scrum as their project managementtechnique, particularly in the software development area. And sothey utilized the three rules of the scrum team, the scrum masterwith the product owner and they carry on the various events withthe retrospective and the demo and the planning, the iterationplanning and all the traditional scrum events. In this particularcase, there was an incident where one of the teams was fallingbehind and it was through the utilization of the retrospectives andthe demos that they were able to borrow from anotherorganization to essentially do load balancing so that they could Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  4. 4. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemscome in and help that other team to actually meet theirdeliverables. It was the usage of the scrum that enabled that kindof mentality for them to see the problem and go in there andquickly try to fix it.Joe: Is that how you introduce the concept of swarming? Is thatas you attack the problem, lets say?Patrick: Yes, I dont know if the attacking was part of theswarming part. But if you want to talk about swarming, in natureswarming is essentially how certain groups of animals, bees andbirds and fish and things like that. How they can all react as whatseemingly is a single organism, without any command andcontrol. Theres no leader thats telling them you do this and youdo that. Somehow they all kind of figure out whats the rightthing to do and they go off and do it. So, theres been somediscussion lately around how Agile and Scrum in particular hassome of those swarming principles or characteristics. I think it allboils down to both of those environments utilize self-organizedteams.Scrum is all about how a team organizes themselves aroundwhats the best way to deliver the commitment. Nobody is inthere telling each individual programmer you do this, you do that,you do it this way. The team self-organizes and they figure it outand they say "OK, this is how were going to solve this particularproblem, lets go to it."I guess theres a lot of similarity to the... Thats how it works inthe animal world sometimes. When things like hives or swarms offish, can just go off and figure out whats the right thing for themto do.Joe: Do you have a task room? Or a room where the teamresides in? Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  5. 5. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsPatrick: Generally, yeah. Most of the teams have what we call acommon room, where they will get together and do the majorityof their development. The common room is usually several tablesput together and everybodys workstations there. On the wallstheyll have information radiators. They have their burn downcharts and their task boards, so they can see whats going on inthe development and where they are at that particular iteration.That way, there is a much higher bandwidth communicationbetween each of the developers. If somebody has a question,they just ask across the table, instead of having to send email, oran IM, or walk down the hall or something. So it just facilitates,more cooperative development when everybodys in the samearea.Joe: So in the old terminology that maybe other terminologythat would be kind of like a war room concept?Patrick: Back in the day when we used to use war rooms, thatwas more, at least the way we experienced it here was, the warroom was more of a place where peoples status their work. Theinformation would all be up there, and people would come in.They would status where they were. You know, thats where theplanning took place. The common room, I think, is more wherethe work takes place. So the people are actually in there gettingtheir work done. Which I think is slightly different from, the waythe war room used to be.Joe: You actually have your task board, you have your iterationplan, and it’s visible to anyone. I guess that would enable otherpeople to come in and help, and get up to date really quick. Theycan just stand and look.Patrick: One of the central pillars of any kind of empiricalproject management like this is there has to be transparency. Youhave to be able to see whats going on. In order for you to thenbe able to inspect and adapt, which is the other two pillars that Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  6. 6. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsyou need to have. Without this visibility, people wont be able tosee where there are problems or where there are issues. Throughthe retrospective at the end of the iteration, theres also thatsame sharing of information.Joe: You said the other two pillars were, inspect and adapt. Wasthe first pillar then transparency?Patrick: Yes. Information needs to be transparent. You need tobe able to see whats going on in your project or your process.Otherwise things are hidden from you. And if things are hiddenfrom you, you cant react to them.Joe: How do you go about teaching something like that? Do youjust throw them in a room and talk to them about what theyreable to do? Or, are you at a point now that youre justintroducing, lets say a new person with some basic instructionfrom you, into that room? Like one at a time, into a group of fiveor six or seven?Patrick: Well the instruction, the way we roll out and deploy ourtraining is, we traditionally start with some training. We do ouragile training under the lean six sigma organization. We have acertification process, and a green belt and a black belt processthat goes along with this. First of all we lay out the principles. Welay out the lean principles by Womack and Jones and the leansoftware development principles by Poppendieck. We want tomake sure that everybody understands the principles behind thepractices that were then going to teach them. You dont get intoa cargo cult mentality, where people are just following particularpractices because thats what they were told to do. You know,you want people to understand why these things work and whyits important.We get into the actual practices around the traditional Agiledevelopment things. You know, Agile modeling, continuousintegration, customer driven development, pair-programming, all Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  7. 7. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsthose Agile practices. We also start teaching around Agile projectmanagement. In particular we talk about Scrum.Once we have that training done, then we do like a coachingworkshop, where we actually start implementing the conceptsthat we just taught them, on their actual code. Well work withthem through a project that theyll bring in.They will be able to implement everything they just learned onthe real code. Its real work; its a real project, so that kind ofgets them introduced to it. Then, since every organization isdifferent, it largely becomes a matter of them trying to figure outwhats the best way for them to implement it.Thats where I become available as a coach, where I can come inand try to help them solve any of those kinds of problems.Joe: Youre in the front end a little bit, helping them, but thenyoure also in the rear part, keeping the team together andsolving the problems that may come up from a team concept.Patrick: Yeah. I wont even say Im in there solving theproblems, but Im there trying to help them solve their ownproblems, create an environment where they can apply thelearning and apply the techniques. It really boils down to applyinga plan-do-check-act cycle on all of the things that theyre dealingwith. Whether its the product development or whether theyretackling issues in their environment, creating common rooms ordealing with infrastructure issues.Joe: When we sit there and talk, you walk them through theLean, the Six Sigma, and the Agile process, is there one of themthats kind of the umbrella over the other three?Patrick: I would say that the Lean principles are pretty muchthe umbrella that we put over all of this, really looking at makingsure we understand what the value is and what your value Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  8. 8. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsstream is and how information and value flows through thatprocess, because you have that and, of course, pull andcontinuous improvement and perfection. Those principles thendrive all the other things. When you start looking at, "So whatdoes that mean to software?" and then we can draw fromPoppendiecks work and say, "All right, well, how does that applyto software around eliminating waste and creating knowledge andall those things?" it all flows back, though, to these Leanprinciples of really understanding what value youre creating andhow you can make that flow through your system as seamlesslyas possible.Then, because its Lean and Six Sigma, the Six Sigma part, wereally focus more then on making sure that theres a focus ondefects, and good tools and good measurements on eliminatingdefects, because, while Scrum and things focus on slow, you alsoneed something thats going to focus on building that integrity inand making sure that youre building quality in from the verybeginning and not just trying to test it at the end.Joe: So you use a lot of what you would say DFSS, or design forSix Sigma, too, in the process.Patrick: Here at Xerox, we do Lean Six Sigma and we do designfor Lean Six Sigma. We combine both methodologies and reallysee them as being very complementary and really working verywell together. We apply that both in traditional Lean Six Sigma aswell as design for Lean Six Sigma.Joe: When you do that youre borrowing the best from either alittle bit, or using the appropriate tool at the appropriate time.But when the tools overlap, do you have a favorite type? Are youusing DMAIC? Are you using PDCA? How do you determine whatto use there?Patrick: Well, I guess it really would depend on the problemthat youre working on. If were really focusing on the Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  9. 9. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsdevelopment side, then were really focusing more on a PDCAmethodology. Which is what Scrum really is, right? Scrum is justa plan-do-check-act methodology. Because any productdevelopment is really a knowledge-creation process, its not awell-defined process, so all you can do is continue to go throughmultiple learning cycles, which is what the iterations are in yourScrum methodology. To make a plan, do it, check your results,and then add the net result and continue to build the knowledge.Now, if we were, on the other hand, trying to solve an existingproblem, well then, DMAIC might be the right approach. Thenwhich tools you draw from that, whether its Six Sigma tools orLean tools, its really going to boil down to what problem it is thatyoure working on.Joe: The other thing that we talked about is that you spendmost of your time in the Agile side? And when we get into theAgile that can be a culture in itself?Patrick: I think I know what you mean. Sometimes Icharacterize it as the Agile movement. Theres a lot of talk andthinking around Agile. But the way weve characterized it here iswe recognize the similarities between what the Agile movementhas and the practices that Agile is bringing to the table and howthey draw from the same principles that Lean is bringing to thetable and Six Sigma, for that matter. We look for the commonthread between the two, because Xerox has a very strong cultureof Lean Six Sigma and design for Lean Six Sigma, so its verynatural for us to look for how whats been called the Agilemovement is really very synonymous with the Lean Six Sigmaprinciples. We blend those two things together here at Xerox. Iwouldnt just say were strictly just Agile. We really like to blendthose things together.Joe: When I looked at Agile, and like you had mentioned before,its very much like a PDCA cycle is what it is. But people in the Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  10. 10. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsAgile field, in the software field, I think what is different thanwhen I see Lean and typical manufacturing-type structures, oreven in service-type instructions, is Agile places so much moreemphasis on feedback and that quicker development cycle thanwhat you see the emphasis placed on traditional Lean and SixSigma type projects. Do you agree with that?Patrick: Im not sure that theres a significant differencebetween what we do in Lean and what we do in Agile. Certainly,when you look at the original origins of Lean, it came from themanufacturing environment. Manufacturing environments havepredefined processes, right? You know whats going to happen atevery step, and you know what youre trying to do at the end, soyou really look at this predefined process and youre saying, "OK,how can I eliminate waste from this process?" You dont need thesame kind of knowledge-creation loops in that kind of a processthat youd need in a product-development process, like softwaredevelopment thats using Agile.You are going to need tighter iterations and more feedback in aproduct-development environment, because you dont know. Itsnot a defined process. Now, when you take the Lean principlesfrom the manufacturing process and you start bringing those intoa product-development environment, then you start needing thesame sorts of feedback loops. Because then it boils down to "Wedont know what were doing next.Were not following a recipe. Now were creating a brand-newrecipe." When youre creating a brand-new recipe, youve got tolearn more, and so you have to have a lot more feedback intothat whole cycle.I think whether youre talking pure Lean or whether youre talkingAgile, you both get drawn into the same conclusions, that whenyou dont know what youre doing, you need feedback. Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  11. 11. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsJoe: One of the things that have been introduced lately in Agileand under the Agile umbrella, I guess, would be Kanban. Theessence of Kanban, one of the great advantages, is managingwork in process. Have you implemented any of that at Xerox yet?Patrick: In our product-development environment? Not really.Whether youre talking about a Kanban process or whether youretalking about a Scrum process, either one of those processes arereally just looking at managing your flow. They both have plusesand minuses. They both have their advantages anddisadvantages. In the Agile community, theres an ever-ragingdebate about which one is better and which one should be used.From my perspective, it really doesnt matter. If you focus backon your Lean principles about what value are you creating, whatsthe process that is used to create it, and how can you make thatprocess flow, Kanban and Scrum are both just answers to thatquestion about how you can make value flow through your valuestream as fast as possible?Which one you choose is really almost unimportant. As long asyoure really focusing on the fact that youre trying to get value toflow through your process. The principle of making that happen ismore important than the actual tool you use to make it happen.Joe: I think you really hit the nail on the head. Because its allabout what you do well and what tools you can use to accomplishflow.Patrick: Yes, exactly.Joe: We started talking a little bit about swarming. Its aboutputting a lot of people on a single task. When that happens atXerox, what are the results of it, and kind of some of thenegatives of that?Patrick: Well, the plus side of course is that things get done.The biggest problems that happens, of course, is when you have Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  12. 12. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemstoo many people doing too many things, nothing gets actuallyfinished. We call it dog piling. When you dog pile everybody ontoa single backlog item, that thing is going to get done. If youreworking on the most important thing, youre getting the mostimportant things done. Thats really whats important is finishingthings, getting things completed, so that you can then move onto the next thing. Thats the real advantage of putting everybodyon one single task, the top priority task.I guess the downside is sometimes people might be idle in that iftheyre not immediately able to be working on something becausetheir contribution, maybe theyre blocked or something like that.Theres a perception that since theyre not busy at that moment,they should be working on something else.So that perception can make a lot of people say "Well, maybethey should pick up another task, something else thats not themost important thing and start working on that." Thats a slipperyslope because then all of a sudden you start building up your WIPagain, and once your WIP starts building up, we all know whathappens. I guess that the downside is you might not be fullyutilizing your resources, but if you do fully utilize your resources,then any kind of a slip up causes a huge delay.Joe: What youre saying is that swarming may not be asefficient, but if your priority is flow, you disregard the efficiency alittle bit?Patrick: Yes, exactly. The analogy I always give is its a relayrace, and you want to focus on the baton. How fast is that batongoing around the track, not how fast is each individual runnerbusy at any given moment, it’s how fast is that baton goingaround the track. That baton is the value going through yoursystem. You want to focus on "How fast is the value flowingthrough my system?" Not "Are all my resources currently fullyutilized?" Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  13. 13. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsThe measure of efficiency should be "How fast can I get value togo through my system?" Not "How utilized are my resources?"Joe: When you use your different agile techniques, whats yourtypical team size? Theyre all different sizes depending upon theproject or how do you try to break that down?Patrick: Depends on what you mean by team. So each Scrumteam is around seven plus or minus two people, somewhere inthat sweet spot range. But then, of course, each project hasmultiple teams working on that project, so any given productwould have anywhere from, I dont know, could be five to 15different Scrum teams working on it. It really just depends on thesize of the actual project.Joe: Sure. But your typical Scrum team has seven people on it,like you said, plus or minus two?Patrick: Yes.Joe: And you have a Scrum master for each one. Are there anyother particularities that you develop within a team? Or that youlook for?Patrick: What do you mean?Joe: You have a Scrum master. Is there any other hierarchy thatyoure looking for within a team or any other type of, you got tohave one of this or one of this in there?Patrick: You want cross functional teams. Thats alwaysimportant that each Scrum team should have the people on itthat are required to deliver whatever vertical slice of functionalitythat youre trying to deliver for the product. One of the badsmells you see sometimes when people start adopting Scrum isthey basically take their functional group and they say "OK, nowyoure a Scrum team. Youll hear "I have the database Scrumteam," or "I have the UI Scrum team," or "I have the testing Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  14. 14. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsScrum team," and obviously thats not going to work well becausewhen youre done, you dont have a vertical slice of functionalitythats been delivered.You want a Scrum team that is going to have somebody from UI,or somebody from the database or somebody from the domainlayer, a tester on the group or whatever, so that each team thenis able to deliver fully functioning pieces of functionality and nothorizontal layers of capability.Joe: In the process, when you have a Scrum teams, you have aglobal Scrum master, too, thats managing all the teams?Patrick: The way thats usually dealt with is a hierarchy. Youhave all your Scrum teams and then you night have a Scrum ofScrums where all the Scrum masters get together and starttalking about inter-Scrum team issues and dependencies.Similarly how each scrum team would have a product ownertalking and making decisions about what is going to be deliveredand whats important for that particular Scrum team. They willthen be kind of hierarchical where there will be a product ownerwho can then make decisions across each of those teams, prioritycalls and say, "this needs to be done before this needs to beforethis." Or organize if necessary when there are interdependenciesbetween deliveries of the scrum teams.Joe: Sounds like to me that Xerox must spend a lot of time onteam building and team concept training.Patrick: As part of our training we do talk about the importanceof the team. When you talk about what is a team? You have tofind a common goal, without a common goal, you dont have ateam. We do talk about those kinds of concepts around whatmakes a team and what makes a team function well together andhow it really is, it boils down to its individual behaviors thatreally make a whole team function. Particularly in our Black Beltprogram, we do spend a lot more time on that kind of stuff, but Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  15. 15. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemswe do sprinkle that out throughout our Green Belt training aswell.Joe: Do you think this concept; is this going into other areas atXerox besides just the software development? I mean, intohardware development and different things like that. Are youusing this team concept and design?Patrick: In the hardware area, they use less Agile and iterativedevelopment techniques. They focus more on modelingtechniques. Because just like software, hardware is all aboutknowledge creation and product development is all aboutknowledge creation. Well, iterations in hardware are a lot moreexpensive. You dont generate as many iterations, the way thatour hardware people gain knowledge is they do a lot of modeling.They end up pulling a lot more from the Six Sigma side of things.They do a lot of design experiments and they do modeling, thatsort of methodology to create their knowledge. So that when theydo their next build of hardware, theyve gotten a lot of thewrinkles out of their design so that it will come together a lotsmoother and faster.Software is cheap to iterate. Software does their knowledgecreation by iterations and feedback. They just generate anotheriteration, get more feedback. So, the same principle of creatingknowledge, but two different ways of actually creating thatknowledge.Joe: I always get confused sometimes when people are talkingabout these different things, these different tools and then theyslide into problem solving. Can you define really a differencebetween the regular work flow and problem solving or do you usethat term interchangeably?Patrick: Depends on what you mean by problem solving, but ifyoure talking about root cause analysis, that is built into a lot of Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  16. 16. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsyour design techniques. When youre trying to figure out why orhow something should work, youre always trying to look forwhats the critical pieces of this. If youre talking about problemsolving as in terms of look, weve got a process or a problem andif somethings broken, we need to fix it. Thats an after-the-factthing where as product development is much more of werecreating this or trying to design our systems so we dont getthose problems in the first place. We do segregate the twodisciplines that way. Thats really the difference between ourtraditional Lean Six Sigma verses our Design for Lean Six Sigma.Lean Six Sigma says youve got a process and you want to findwhat the problem is, you use Lean Six Sigma techniques to dothat. Whereas our Design for Lean Six Sigma says lets design ourproducts so that we dont get the problems in the first place.Joe: Are you developing a stronger and stronger of what I wouldsay agile culture as far as adaptability and quicker work flows?Patrick: I think it really is becoming a part of our culture here.The thing with this program from the beginning, I started withthis in I think in 2005, is when I first started trying to puttogether the software design for Lean Six Sigma Greenbeltprogram. At that time, it was a real push. There was a lot ofresistance; there was a lot of skepticism around whether or notthis is going to work. We started deploying it and a few earlyadopters took it on and they started getting successes.Some other groups start taking it on. They started gettingsuccesses. Now, I think weve gone to that tipping point.Now, its really changed the culture of how our company works,particularly in the software area. In this whole theory ofcontinuing to improve, I think we can continue to expand all thisas we get further out in the overall development process. Insoftware in particular, I really do believe weve seen a real culture Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  17. 17. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsshift on how people do their work. Ive seen some very powerfuland positive impacts from it.Joe: I can remember you introduced me to pair programming ina podcast a year ago. What I have seen in the past year is thatconcept taken and used in other fields. Because of the ability ofwhen youre working with someone or youre working with ateam, you get that instant feedback and kind of a daily PDCAcycle that youre constantly improving and youre constantly havea check and balance there. Do you see, in whether you call itpair-programing or team collaboration; have you seen that beingutilized more and more?Patrick: I dont have as much visibility into a lot of the othergroups. My impression is in the same time that Agile was reallytaking off in the software area. You were hearing about rapiddevelopment in hardware, all the engineering taking placesimultaneously. It was the same kind of concepts and I think theywere growing in parallel with each other without really beingcompletely aware of each other. I believe that the folks over inthe hardware area are using the same sort of principles andconcepts in their hardware development that software is.Now, of course, because there are differences in how you develophardware and how you develop software and the variousexpenses, theyre going to draw from different tools but the sameprinciples, I think, are applied in both areas.Joe: Now, swarming is an Agile response when someones introuble in the middle of an iteration is when people gather roundto help. When does someone raise their hand or does the Scrummaster determine that you need outside help and talks with theother Scrum masters. How do you go about that process to bringin the help?Patrick: Generally, youll start seeing -- and it depends on howbig your iterations are. Typically around here, our iterations are Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  18. 18. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systemsreasonably short. We generally have two week iterations. Itsusually during the retrospective or the review meeting where thisinformation will come out more across teams.Within the team, or course, youll start seeing that in your dailyScrum. If people are having barriers or theyre getting intotrouble, theyll come out in the daily Scrum.Usually then, at the end of the retrospective, theyll say lookwere behind. What didnt work well? Well guess what, we werentdelivering our commitments, weve got these issues. What are wegoing to do about it?Well, we need some more help. Thats when you can utilize thisScrum of scrums notion that I talked about before. Where thescrum masters from the various teams can start getting togetherand talking about inter-team issues.If one of the Scrum masters teams is having trouble, they canbring that up at the Scrum of Scrums. There at that level, startdiscussing what would be the best approach to fixing it.Often what happens is the Scrum masters will bring thatinformation back to their teams. The teams will collaborate andfigure out whats the best way to address the problem.Its this whole notion of again, self-directed teams. The Scrummaster doesnt come down and start telling people, "Hey, youguys have to go work on this other team." But, its really more ofan information flow. And say, "Hey guys, this is what Im hearingabout the project, what do you think we can do?"The teams will then try to self-direct and figure out whats thebest way to approach. Now, of course, they also need to makesure that the product owners are all inline with priorities. If theteam thats the farthest behind, if theyre the lowest priority, thenthats the thing thats going to fall behind. Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  19. 19. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsIf theyre a higher priority on the product backlog, those itemswill be higher so, just like we talked about this morning. Peoplefrom other teams will then go over and theyll start dog pilingthese higher issues.If they need to break it down into smaller chunks, the otherteams can take on some of that work and then they can work onthose higher priorities together.Joe: Well, it has to take some real openness with all the teamsand all the team individuals to be able to do it comfortably andthe acceptance that they want help and to help others. That hasto be a pretty unique culture, doesnt it?Patrick: That goes back to that transparency again. In order forany of this stuff to work, you have to be absolutely transparentabout everything. If you are having problems, you need to makesure thats visible. Thats why their task boards and theirburn-down charts are all up on their walls. That stuff needs to bevisible to everybody because, without it being visible, you cantinspect.If you cant inspect then, you cant adapt. You have to betransparent so that this whole thing works. If you dont have thattransparency, then none of this is going to work.Joe: The other part that you talked about, the other threepillars, you talked about inspect and adapt. I think weve covered"adapt" pretty well in this whole thing. But, what about theinspect part? How often are you inspecting and who is inspecting,I guess?Patrick: The teams inspect daily during their daily Scrum.Theyre inspecting to making sure that theyre going to bedelivering on their commitments. They get together on a dailystand-up for 15 minutes or less. Say what have they delivered,what do they plan working on, and what barriers do they have. Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  20. 20. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing SystemsEvery 24 hours, if not more, because if theyre in a commonroom, theyre pretty intimate with whats going on. Minimally,every 24 hours theyre together saying whether or not theyregoing to make their deliverables.Then, at the end of every iteration, which is typically two weeksaround here, they do an inspection on both the product wherethey do the review. The product owner and any stakeholder,whos interested, will come into that review and look at theprogress that the team is making and determine if anycorrections need to be made there.Theres that inspection and then at the retrospective theres alsoinspection. So there, theyre looking at the process to determinewhether or not any changes need to be made to how theyredelivering things.Theyre inspecting daily for their delivery for that iteration and atthe end of every iteration, theyre inspecting the product andtheyre inspecting the process.Joe: Id really like to thank you Pat for insightful conversationabout the Agile process and Lean Six Sigma at Xerox. It was veryinteresting. I learn something every time that I talk to Xerox. Iappreciate the opportunity to do this very much. Is thereanything youd like to add to this conversation?Patrick: No, I just want to say thanks to you Joe. Its always apleasure talking with you and anytime youd like to get together,itd be my pleasure.Joe: Well, thanks again Pat. This podcast will be available on theBusiness901 blog site but also Business901 blog site. So, thanksagain Pat.Patrick: Youre very welcome Joe, thank you. Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901
  21. 21. Business901 Podcast TranscriptionImplementing Lean Marketing Systems Joseph T. Dager Lean Six Sigma Black Belt Ph: 260-438-0411 Fax: 260-818-2022 Email: jtdager@business901.com Web/Blog: http://www.business901.com Twitter: @business901 What others say: In the past 20 years, Joe and I have collaborated on many difficult issues. Joes ability to combine his expertise with "out of thebox" thinking is unsurpassed. He has always delivered quickly, costeffectively and with ingenuity. A brilliant mind that is always a pleasure towork with." James R.Joe Dager is President of Business901, a progressive company providingdirection in areas such as Lean Marketing, Product Marketing, ProductLaunches and Re-Launches. As a Lean Six Sigma Black Belt,Business901 provides and implements marketing, project and performanceplanning methodologies in small businesses. The simplicity of a singleflexible model will create clarity for your staff and as a result betterexecution. My goal is to allow you spend your time on the need versus theplan.An example of how we may work: Business901 could start with aconsulting style utilizing an individual from your organization or a virtualassistance that is well versed in our principles. We have capabilities toplug virtually any marketing function into your process immediately. Asproficiencies develop, Business901 moves into a coach’s role supporting theprocess as needed. The goal of implementing a system is that the processeswill become a habit and not an event. Business901 Podcast Opportunity Expert Status Adding Value in Development Copyright Business901

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