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Listen to this podcast at http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/03/235-whats-wrong-with-the-china-study/

Listen to this podcast at http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/03/235-whats-wrong-with-the-china-study/

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Ben Greenfield Podcast 235 Ben Greenfield Podcast 235 Document Transcript

  • Podcast #235 fromhttp://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2013/03/235-whats-wrong-with-the-china-study/[0:00:00.0]Introduction: In this episode of the Ben Greenfield fitness podcast: What’swrong with the China study? Also: Is Greek yogurt healthier thanregular yogurt, what can you do about nervous system failure, thebest natural supplements to control pain, what is Evo athlete, anddoes marijuana increase exercise performance?Brock: Okay. On Sunday, I was doing a race in Hamilton, Ontario – a 30kroad race. In Hamilton, you can’t do half marathon or fullmarathon. You have to do something in between. It’s calledAround the Bay. And I was 4k in, just starting to settle into a nicerhythm and was running next to a couple of guys, probablyaround my age and they were chit chatting away and I heard oneof them say, “So I was listening to this podcast the other day andthis guy was going on and on about heart rate variability and howyou can measure your stress levels and how you can figure out ifyou’re recovering from your workouts properly and then he wastalking about this thing you put on into your finger and itmeasures your oxygen saturation” and so I ran just a little bitcloser and like, “Did that happen to be Ben Greenfield that wastalking about that?” And they looked at me and said, “yeah, itwas”. And I was like, “I’m Brock” and they were like “oh, it’s soawesome to meet you” and we all started shaking hands and hadthis great bonding moment for probably like 400 meters and thenI realized that they were actually keeping a pace that I wasn’t ableto sustain so shamefully.Ben: I was gonna say, you didn’t hold hands and skip across the finishline or something like that, did you?Brock: I wish. They were significantly faster than me so I dropped backand saw them disappear into the distance. But nonetheless, I stillfelt like a rock star for a few minutes there.Ben: Wow! Well, apparently, our audience is 2 more people than ourmoms. That’s great!
  • Brock: Yes. We’ve got 4 listeners.Ben: Cool! And how did the 30k wind up going for you?Brock: Well, for the first race this season, I’m not horribly disappointed.I didn’t hit the time that I wanted but I only missed it by actually,a minute and 2 seconds. Not horrible, but it did point out to methat there are few things I need to work on like one is hills. I lostall my time on 2 hills. I know I need to attack those better. And Ihate to say it but I think I’m just carrying too much weight.Ben: You’re pregnant, are you?Brock: Shhhh…3 months…Ben: Wow. Tell you what. Maybe what we can do at the end of theepisode for any listeners who are interested, when we talk a littlebit at the end of this episode about how to become a better hillclimber and how we need to go about shedding some weight to getyou ready for Boston Marathon.Brock: It’s not all spare tire. Only part of it is spare tire. Some of it’ssome muscle as well, unfortunately. But that’d be great.Ben: …..some birth control pills. All right. We better jump in.News Flashes:Brock: Okay. This is the time of the show where Ben explains all theinteresting news flashes that he’s been sending out onTwitter.com/bengreenfield, at Facebook.com/bgfitness and alsoat Google+. So what have you got for us this week?Ben: Well, Brock, I’ve been saying for years that there’s a big, bigproblem with a lot of these studies out there that looked into whatyou’re eating and how what you’re eating can affect yourperformance and the main reason for that is (any long timelistener to the show might know) that most of these studies weredone with people who were in fasted state, meaning, how many ofus do actually frequently go out there after a good 12-hour fast
  • and do a time trial or a hard weight training session or somethinglike that.Brock: Even people who workout first thing in the morning, likepersonally, if I know I’m doing something first thing in themorning, I’ll have a little snack before I go to bed like 8-9 PM soyou and my 6 o’clock swim isn’t really in a fasted state. I’ve stillgot a lot of stuff on board.Ben: Yeah. I can’t remember the last time I worked out in the morningactually. I think it was during the Superhuman Live event when Ihad to get my ass out of bed at the ungodly hour, 6 AM, for thatboot camp. I’m not a big morning working out person unlessyou…[0:05:13.3]Brock: That’s because you don’t have to get up and go to the office everymorning.Ben: That’s right. Well, I do. I have to somehow get my butt and gearto do the home office thing. Anyways, though, what happenedwas, in the Journal of Nutrition, they put out an article calledCarbohydrates and Exercise Performance in Non-Fasted Athletes.For me, one of those articles that was like, it’s about time they didsomething like this.Brock: Finally!Ben: Yeah. Finally. And that’s how much of a geek I am in that I get offwhen I see an article come out in the journal start pumping likethis.Brock: It’s better than Christmas.Ben: That’s right. What they reported was essentially that, there is thisconsensus that claims the ergogenic effect of carbohydratesingested in the proximity of or during a performance bout. But inthese studies, the protocols that are used are typically, very, verystandardized non-real world scenarios in fasted subjects who areexercising at this constant exercise intensity with the test of timeto exhaustion, not a test of performance, meaning, they’retypically tested how long you can go out without becomingexhausted. Whereas in the real world, a lot of times, we’re looking
  • at how fast we can complete x amount of distance, right? Or howmuch we can lift x amount of weight. So, a lot of these situationsdon’t reflect competitive real-life situations. What they did inthis article was, they systematically summarized all of thedifferent studies that actually did truly mimic the situation of areal-life competition, meaning, people exercising after they’veeaten and meaning, performances that were more time trial likeperformance test like a fixed distance or fixed time. And theywent over thousands and thousands and thousands of studies.Now, of all the studies that actually looked into the efficacy ofdoing something like a high carbohydrate dosing or carbohydrateintervention, what was found was that the improvements fromtaking in carbohydrates prior to exercise were far, far lower thanwhat is typically reported to us in say like, Shape Magazine orMen’s Health or common sports nutrition advice. And when theylooked at studies that actually mimicked real-life competition,what they found was that carbohydrates that you take in in theproximity of or during a performance about that is at 70 minutesor less offers you pretty much no benefit, meaning that if yourexercise session is gonna be an hour to an hour and 10 minutes,there is no need for you to go out and eat carbohydratesbeforehand or during. And there is a possible but much lowersignificance of the effect of carbohydrates in performancedurations that are longer than 70 minutes, meaning that theamount of benefit that came out of (and they’re studied from 26all the way up to 240 minutes and most of these studies were oncyclists just because that’s typically what a lot of these lab studiesare done with. Very, very little effects in terms of how muchcarbohydrates truly help you in this real world situations. And soit was just super interesting to go through this and have that“come to Jesus” moment where it’s like, “Wow, we’ve been sowrong for so long about this stuff. So I’ll link to the abstract of thestudy in the show notes for this episode. What is this, Episode #235?Brock: 225. Wait, I think it’s 235. Oh you’re right, 235!Ben: Anyways though, check it out if you’re interested in looking intocarbohydrates and exercise performance in non-fasted individualsrather than fasted individuals.Brock: Very cool.
  • Ben: Yeah. A couple of other things that came across the radar thisweek: One was that yoga can actually increase your deadlift. Andthis one surprised me. There is this study in the Journal ofStrength and Conditioning where they looked at Bikram Yoga andthey tested Bikram Yoga and about 8 weeks of Bikram Yoga at 3times a week. And they looked at everything from heart rate andblood pressure to VO2max to fat mass to lean mass to lower backand hamstring and shoulder flexibility and they also looked athand grip strength and isometric deadlift strength and eventhough after 8 weeks of this Bikram Yoga, which is the hot yoga,they didn’t find an increase in cardiovascular measures. Theydidn’t find an increase in maximal aerobic fitness but what theydid find, in addition to the increased flexibility (which you wouldhave expected) was increased deadlift strength.[0:10:20.0]And the hypothesis here was that, many of the postures that arespecifically involved in something like Bikram Yoga, actually doinvolve a forceful contraction, almost like an isometric contractionof your trunk and your shoulder muscles and so these peopleactually got stronger with yoga.Brock: Were they doing any weight lifting at the same time as yoga orthey were just doing yoga for 8 weeks?Ben: No. They controlled it for any training outside of the yoga so theywere just doing yoga training vs. a control group that was notdoing yoga training. There you have it. Yoga can make youstronger. I’ll bet that there are much, much faster ways to getstronger but just in case you’re concerned that if you’re doing asolo yoga practice, you’re not gonna build any strength at all. Itturns out that you actually can maintain some strength and Iwould assume that these folks were doing a proper…BikramYoga’s a 90-minute protocol and having been through a fewBikram Yoga sessions myself, I can tell you that there are a lot ofisometric movements in there that are kind of exhausting. We’llactually talk about isometrics and why they work, later on in theshow ‘cause I think we’ve got a question about the Evil AthleteProgram that we’re doing. We’ll get into that a little bit more.Last thing that I wanted to mention if all of the listeners haven’tleft already to go do their yoga, is a study that looked at the effect
  • of cadence on cycling efficiency and what’s called local tissueoxygenation. This one was pretty interesting. What they did was,they took a bunch of recreational cyclists/triathletes. It’s not likeelites but people who’ve been cycling a while. They looked at 3different cycling cadences: cycling at 60 rpm, cycling at 80 rpmand cycling at 100 rpm. And what they found was that, thesetrained cyclists and triathletes were more efficient and moreeconomical when they were cycling at 60 rpm compared to whenthey were cycling at 80 or at a 100 rpm. And they also found thatheart rate and also blood lactate levels were higher when peoplewere cycling at 80 rpm and at 100 rpm compared to when theywere cycling at 60 rpm. And so a take away from this was thatcadence of 60 rpm might actually be advantageous forperformance in moderately trained athletes. And you need tocontrast this with studies in the past which have found that higherrpms do actually improve your performance but those studieswere done in elite cyclists, who may have a lot more efficiency, alot better ability to recruit more muscles at those higher cadences.And again, this is also something we’ll get into ‘cause this is partof that Evil Athlete Protocol Talk about as well. But what it comesdown to is you don’t necessarily have to shy away from gearmashing, so to speak, from being down around 60 rpm if you’re atriathlete out there doing a triathlon. There’s no evidence that it’sactually gonna hold you back and it may indeed, be more efficientthan cycling at higher cadences.Brock: I remember, there actually being a great debate a number of yearsago between triathletes and road cyclists. There was that debateof whether you should be actually doing the 90 revolutions perminute and the road cyclists were saying “no” and the triathleteswere saying “yes” so maybe, it’s somewhere in between?Ben: Was it like gangs of New York where they’re out on the street withshoes and pitchforks?Ben: That was more like a Westside Story. They were dancing andsnapping their fingers at each other.Ben: Yeah. In spandex.Brock: Yup!Ben: Nice.
  • Special Announcements:Brock: All right. Mr. Webinar, you’ve got a couple of webinars coming upwith the Inner Circle, one on April 6th about How to RaiseSuperhuman Children.Ben: That’s right. And you know what’s funny is, my kids actually wearcapes about 24/7. They’ve got these capes that mom made themwhen they were 3 (they’re Superman capes) and one says “T” andone says “R” and they do wear those capes everywhere – grocerystore, day care, everywhere. Anyways though, that’s not why wetitled this particular upcoming webinar.Brock: That’s the whole webinar is – How to Make a Cape for your Kids.Ben: Exactly. How to Sew a Cape. No, it’s How to Raise SuperhumanKids and we’re just gonna teach you how to really optimizeperformance and health in your kids.[0:15:01.0]That one’s coming up next Saturday, April 6th and then there’sanother webinar we’ll be doing for the Inner Circle called Ask BenAnything about Minimalist Triathlon Training. Again, those arelimited to people who are part of the Inner Circle but it’s just 10bucks a month. And in my opinion, for everything that you getinside the circle, the best 10 bucks a month you’re ever gonnaspend so check that out. We’ll put a link to those in the shownotes along with the times and everything. And of course, if youare in the Inner Circle, you get access to the replays of those aswell as the replays of every single webinar we have ever done.And there are a lot of them I there now. Also, it’s not a webinarbut Brock and I are gonna be doing a guest episode of JimmyMoore’s Living La Vida Low Carb.Brock: That’s right. I’m excited. I feel like we should wear some CarmenMiranda hats or something just to be the Living La Vida.Ben: That’s right. And you can call in and leave your low carb question.And I’m totally going over what Brock said and ignoring itbecause I have no clue what Carmen Miranda is.Brock: She is a Spanish dancing singing lady from the 70’s who wore abig hat made of fruit and played maracas.
  • Ben: Oh! I know what you’re talking about. I was showing my age.Brock: I know, I was showing my age.Ben: So, call in and leave your low carb question for our Jimmy Mooreepisode same way you’d call in and leave a question for any of ourepisode. You either call toll-free to 8772099439 or you leave yourmessage on that little speak pipe tab on the right side of the pageat bengreenfieldfitness.com. A couple other quick things in theway of special announcements: The first is that Abel James, thehost of the Fat-Burning show along with myself put together aspecial little package for you. And in between this specialannouncements and the Q & A, Brock and I will play a littlespecial announcement that Abel and I actually put together foryou. So listen in to that ‘cause that’s coming up in just a second.And then, a couple other things: I owe an apology to people whosubscribed to the podcast and saw the video that I put out thisweek, in which I interviewed Heather from the blood-testingcompany called the Talking 20 ‘cause you couldn’t hear Heather’svoice. You could hear it on the website but you couldn’t hear it onthe podcast. Anyways though, if you wanna go check it out over atbengreenfieldfitness.com, Heather’s got this cool new servicecalled Talking 20. She’s an MDPhD, which is code word for beingsmart.Brock: Super smart. And she’s Canadian.Ben: Yeah. And what Talking 20 is, is you order this package and theysend you 36 different cards. And you can use these cards anytimeyou want. You can use it in 36 days in a row. You could use themfor 3 years but just one drop of blood on these cards and you sendthem back in and you get everything from organ panel tocholesterol panel to inflammatory panel to pretty mucheverything that you’d want to know about what’s going on insideyour body. But as opposed to some of the other ways to measureyour biomarkers that we’ve talked about in the past, this does notinvolve getting in your car and driving to a lab or giving a bunchof blood or peeing in a cup or anything like that, or sniffing peanutbutters. You can drip saliva into a tube, which is my secret. Youjust send it off and super convenient. It’s not cheap ‘cause you’rebuying 36 all at once so it’s like $1300. If you use this special codethat I put in the post, it’s closer to 1100 but kinda cool especially if
  • people like to geek out on biohacking. So check that out. It’scalled Talking 20.Brock: That can’t actually be as accurate as those other tests, can it?‘Cause it’s just one drop of blood vs. all these vials.Ben: It is. It’s mass spectrometry so it is. It’s in the technology thatthey’re using and it’s kind of the next thing before we all just get achip and plant it in our forearm that allows us to monitor ourbiomarkers 24/7.Brock: I’m not looking forward to that day.Ben: There you go. And then the last thing I wanted to mention wasthat, at the recent Become Superhuman Live event, onstage, I wasshowing folks the brand new 213-page manual and 14 CDs thatinclude everything you’d ever need to know about optimizingperformance, fat loss, recovery, digestion, brain, sleep andhormones. It’s this big binder you can order. It gets mailed toyour house. You can also get in digital format so it all getsdownloaded straight to your computer and even though thatoriginally was exclusively available at the Become SuperhumanLive event, it is now available for anybody anywhere in the world.[0:20:11.9]I will put a link in the show notes if you want to grab that essentialguide to becoming superhuman and whether you’re a personaltrainer or whether you’re just somebody who wants to knoweverything that you need to know about optimizing your body, it’sa pretty cool deal. Hey folks, it’s me, Ben Greenfield.Abel: And this is Abel James.Ben: You may recognize me, Ben from the Ben Greenfield FitnessPodcast.Abel: Or me from the Fat-Burning Man Show.Ben: And today, Abel and I wanna tell you the number 1 workout thatwe’re doing right now to burn fat. So, Abel, I want you to take itaway first. What is it that you’re doing right now when it comes toexercise to get your body as lean as possible?
  • Abel: So the first thing that I do that a lot of people skip is a warm-up. Ido about 5 minutes of shadow boxing and light stretching, then Igo straight into doing some pull-ups to failure, doing someburpies and then I do some heavy squats and heavy deadlifts inthe shed in the backyard. And that’s it. It’s easy and I love it rightnow.Ben: Did you just say a shed in the backyard?Abel: That’s right. I workout in my shed. Usually, I workout, actually,in my backyard in the sun because it’s just that nice in Austin.Ben: I was gonna say the shed’s about as masochistic as you can get.You see after doing your squats and deadlifts...Abel: A punching bag is.Ben: I’ve got this thing that I’m doing. It’s called a Liebenow sprint.Abel: I love how you geek out all the time, Ben.Ben: I’ve no clue what Liebenow even mean. Anyways though, what Ido is, I’ve got this 50-lb dumbbell and I take it out to the hillbehind my house and I do 15 dumbbell swings and then sprint400 meters up the hill. I drop the dumbbell and hold thedumbbell. It’s like still in mid-air dropping to the ground and I’moff sprinting. I do that 8 times through and man, when it comesto a fat-burning workout, that is about the most potent thing thatI found yet.Abel: So you sprint back and forth before the dumbbell even hits theground, right?Ben: Exactly. It’s like Road Runner from….Looney Toons…Abel: That’s a fat-burning workout right there.Ben: Exactly. I guess folks are probably wondering why Abel and I arehere geeking out about fat loss. It’s because we’ve got a newwebsite.Abel: That’s right.Ben: And it is basically, Abel and I following each other around eachother’s houses with a camera, virtually, of course, since Abel is inAustin and I live in Washington and we are basically showing you
  • everything we do from the time we get up out of bed in themorning all the way up through lunch through our workoutsthrough dinner through bedtime to live what we call a “LeanLifestyle”.Abel: Yeah. And you’ll learn things that are kind of a more advancedstrategies. A lot of times on our podcasts or shows or blogs, we’lltalk about things that are kind of generalized to the public butthese are the things that we literally do ourselves everyday – allthe secrets of what we’re cooking, what we’re eating for breakfastor not eating for breakfast for that matter, what we may or maynot be putting in our coffee depending on the day, pretty muchany supplement that we’re taking and tons more. Ben has all sortsof crazy gizmos that you’ll be able to see. It’s a blast to watch.Ben: And Abel’s house is much cleaner than mine as you’ll also findout. Anyways though, here’s what you do if you want to get insidethe Lean Lifestyle Insider right now. All right. Abel, what is theURL that people can go to if they want to get in on that LeanLifestyle Insider right now?Abel: That would leanlifestyleinsider.com/b.Ben: That’s leanlifestyleinsider.com/b. And I’ll put a link in the shownotes for URL, too. Hey, Abel, thanks for coming on the show.Abel: Anytime, Ben.Listener Q & A:Kamil: Hi Ben and Brock! It’s Kamil here. My question, Ben, recently, Iwas listening to Rich Roll about all the stuff and the China study.It was quite disturbing reading ‘cause they tell that you shouldremove all the animal food and their approach is quite different.To be frank, I’m quite…I don’t know what to do now. Should Iremove all the animal food? I’d want to hear your thoughts on thesubject. Thanks in advance for a reply.[0:25:16.1]Brock: That’s interesting. I know a lot of people have read the Chinastudy and had a very similar reaction like sworn off meat for therest of their lives because it does make a very compellingargument.
  • Ben: Yeah. I read it cover to cover and found it quite interesting. Thepremise for the people who haven’t read it, is that all animalfoods, whether we’re talking about chicken mcnuggets or grass-fed beef are responsible for pretty much every modern ailmentthat we have from heart disease to cancer to everything. And sothe China study has quickly risen as almost like this Bible for thevegan and the vegetarian community because it appears at firstglance to have a ton of evidence in it for meat being bad for you,for animal products being something that can cause a lot of issues.It’s called the China study because it draws upon demographicinformation primarily collected from groups of people living inChina who had access to meat and groups that didn’t have accessto meat even though it does go into a little bit more detailed injust that and there are some studies on the rats, etc. as well so it’snot just about China. It’s written by this guy named T ColinCampbell and he is, as I believe, a researcher. I think he’s aphysician as well. What happened was, he noticed that livercancer was an issue among Filipinos and particularly, wealthyFilipinos and this liver cancer was happening in those wealthyFilipinos at a much higher rate than their less wealthy Filipinocounterparts. Campbell thought that this might be due to theirhigher intake of animal protein. On top of that, and one of theinspirations for him going on in kinda looking into this issue inChina, he also found a study that showed that high protein intakecould cause potential for increased risk of liver cancer in ratswhile at the same, a low protein intake kinda seem to prevent thatliver cancer. And so Campbell, basically launched in to writingthe China Study and not only looked at the demographics of thesefolks in China but also started to study rats. And he did a series ofexperiments where he exposed rats to very, very high levels ofwhat’s called aflatoxin. And we’ve actually talked about aflatoxinon the podcast before. It’s this carcinogen produced by mold thatgrows on peanut and on corn and so what T Colin Campbell didwas, he gave each of these group of rats very high levels ofaflatoxin and then he fed them a diet and he broke them intogroups and each diet contain varying levels of this milk proteincalled casein, which we’re probably all familiar with. It’ssomething that we get from dairy products and occasionally insome protein powders and derivatives like that as well, and ofcourse, in cheese. What happened was that, in all the studies thathe did, the rats that had a low, low amount of total calories
  • comprised of these casein protein, remained tumor-free anddidn’t get cancer. And the rats that were eating 20% or more oftheir calories from casein were developing these tumor growthsthat showed that they were starting to go into liver cancer. Whathappened was that he also decided he was gonna look into thetype of protein and he reported that animal protein was the worstbecause in several of his experiments, when aflatoxin-exposedrats were fed wheat proteins or soy proteins, these vegan orvegetarian protein derivatives instead of casein protein, theydidn’t develop cancer compared to the 20% level that the rats thatwere fed the animal-based protein seemed to develop. And so itappeared that plant proteins were better than animal proteinsthat specifically reduced risk of cancer growth. And so, on hewent to write the China Study and report in this. But one of theissues here is that there are a lot of other studies that go wayoutside of this study that T Colin Campbell did in which he put ratin a relatively unique situation of having been exposed to highamounts of aflatoxin before even starting into the protein feeding.[0:30:04.4]And these studies show that another major animal protein, wheyprotein, actually consistently suppresses tumor growth ratherthan promoting tumor growth and that’s probably because wheyprotein can increase levels of something called glutathione, whichis that same antioxidant that I use before I go out and drinkcopious amounts of alcohol. But either way, whey can preventcancer. And so that kinda flies in the face of some Campbell’sresearch. The other issue is that there are issues here with theactual study itself in that, the rats that were consuming the highcasein diet were indeed developing liver cancer the way thatCampbell described. And the reason that the rats in low caseingroup were not reported as being a group that was at as high riskof developing live cancer is because they were actually dyingearlier. That’s a big, big flaw in the study. Basically, the reasonfor that is because when you have a protein deficiency thatprevents your liver from detoxifying your body the way that it’ssupposed to. So if you give me a bunch of aflatoxin and then takeaway all my proteins while I’m not getting the glutathione that myliver needs to keep it from dying, then what happens is I’ll just dieearlier so I won’t get cancer but it won’t matter ‘cause I’ll be dead.So one really, really big issue with these studies is a lot of the
  • animals that were reported as not getting cancer, they can’t getcancer because they were dying.Brock: I’ve heard one oncologist say that if a person or a race or anygroup of people live long enough, they will eventually die ofcancer.Ben: Yeah.Brock: It’s kind of a given for most living beings: If you live long enough,you will get cancer and it will kill you. So yeah, if you die beforeyou get it…Ben: Exactly. Even one of Campbell’s experiments was completely leftout of the study and that particular experiment showed that whenyou do with a lot of vegan and vegetarians do, which is mixedproteins to form a complete protein like nuts and grains areperfect examples, you’re adding something like an almond to awheat so that the lysine that’s not present in the wheat is gettingadded to your meal because you’re getting the lysine from thealmonds. But for example, what was shown in one of Campbell’sexperiments on rats was that when you supplement wheat glutenwith lysine to make a complete protein, that particular proteincombination behaves exactly like casein to promote tumor growthand so it was almost like he was cherry-picking these studies tovilify animal proteins when in fact, combinations of plantsproteins can cause the same issue. Once again, with a caveat herethat we’re talking about a population of rats put in a very uniquesituation in that they’ve been exposed to these high levels ofaflatoxin. And so this is not a very, very real world scenario.Anyways, there are a lot of other issues with the China study and Icould talk for a long time about them but I think that the subjectitself has been treated very, very thoroughly by someone namedDenise Minger. Denise runs a website that was originallydesigned to help vegans and vegetarians eat more healthy andhelps specifically raw food. It’s over at rawfoodsos.com andDenise has written a very, very thorough analysis of the Chinastudy that does a fair job presenting both sides of the issue butthat kinda comes out on the side of showing that there’s a lot ofresearch and a lot of conclusions drawn from the China study thatyou simply can’t extrapolate to the general population,particularly the fact that a lot of the variables that are left out of
  • the diets or the lifestyle of many vegans and vegetarians such asnot smoking, in many cases, avoiding vegetable oils and processedfoods or foods high in preservatives. A lot of times, living a veryhealthy lifestyle such as a Seventh Day Adventist might do. A lotof these are confounding variables that make it so we can’t simplytake a large vegan and vegetarian population point out thatthey’re having a lower risk of cancer turn around and blame it onthe presence of animal proteins. I’ll link to Denise Minger’s studyin the show notes for Kamil and that would be a really, reallyhelpful thing to go and check out.[0:35:03.1]Brock: Yeah. I was just looking up T Colin Campbell online hereand it was very unfortunate the first thing that popped up inmy Google window was “T Colin Campbell Quack”. But thataside, he’s not a physician, he’s a biochemist and I actuallydidn’t realize he also wrote Forks over Knives, which is theother Bible for vegan and vegetarians.Ben: That’s a movie, isn’t it? Or is it a book?Brock: It’s a book. They made it into a movie.Ben: Okay. I gotcha. I didn’t realize it was a book as well.Interesting. I would certainly go look into that ‘cause I didn’tspend as long a time talking about it but all theseassociations between cholesterol from animal proteins andcancer and the association between cancer and animalproteins. There are a lot of confounding variables in therethat need to be considered so I’d go check that out. If you’revegan or you are vegetarian, listen to the previous episodesthat we’ve done or even go to the MyList that I created. Ifyou go to the Ben Greenfield Facebook page over atfacebook.com/bgfitness, I’ve got an entire MyList over therethat gives you a really convenient handy list of the things thatyou should include in your diet if you’re vegan or vegetarianbecause there are things missing such as gamma linoleic acidand a lot of your omega 3 fatty acids, a lot of your vitamin Bcomplexes, a fair amount of zinc, a fair amount of vitamin D,things of that nature that you do want to supplement withand so check that out too and that’ll be useful for you. I’vepersonally eaten vegan (my wife and I did raw vegan for
  • about 6 months) and I did it the right way and I felt prettygood. I didn’t experience a lot of defocus and the mentaldeficits and stuff that folks who do it the wrong way and golow-fat-high-carb get but I just lost a lot of muscle ‘cause Iwasn’t getting enough creatine and I wasn’t getting enoughamino acids to really support my particular level of activityand effect that I like to maintain, slightly higher levels ofmuscle than I naturally would maintain so it didn’t work outfor me but that’s just because I like to flex in the mirror.Bill: Hi Ben! This is Bill from Reno. I’ve got a nutrition questionfor you about Greek yogurts? Is Greek yogurt made withcow’s milk or goat’s milk. And if it is made with cow’s milk,wouldn’t that cause that same amount of intestinal leakageand gastric distress and inflammation that regular yogurtcauses? What’s the big difference here? Thanks.Brock: You know what I have to say to Bill?Ben: My wife and I wound up accidentally at this Greek weddingin Portland once when we were down there. I think we’redown there for triathlon and we went out at night andwalked in to this building. It should have been a warningsign to us but it had like a giant octopus on the top of it.Brock: Awesome!Ben: And it was like empty downstairs but we heard a bunch ofcommotion upstairs and the host just asked us if we want togo up and join a Greek wedding. So really cool, we went upthere and within about 10 minutes, I was out there in thecrowd doing my simulation of a chicken dance and gettingOuzo poured down my throat by a server, literally. First timeI’d ever had Ouzo and it was getting poured directly from thebottle and into my galette and it was quite an experience.They didn’t have any Greek yogurt there that I can recall.Brock: It doesn’t go well with Ouzo.Ben: I know. I wouldn’t imagine. But Greek style yogurt isessentially just strained yogurt so you start with yourtraditional fermentation of yogurt and after the fermentationprocess is complete, you then strain that yogurt using filters
  • and sometimes you spin it to remove a significant portion ofthat kind of watery part of yogurt that you typically get inyogurt.Brock: That’s the whey, right?Ben: Yeah. The water part is whey. It’s very similar to the wheythat my wife and I make yogurt cheese. We’ll get a goodorganic yogurt or my wife will make yogurt from a raw milkthat we get from a local farm and after we make the yogurt,we’ll strain out all the whey and we wind up with yogurtcheese. But you can also use a similar process if you have aspinner or yogurt maker to make a thick creamy yogurt andthat’s Greek style yogurt. And unlike the name suggests, it’snot necessarily something that originated from Greece. Ibelieve it was originally from some air bridge in the MiddleEast but either way, it’s gotten incredibly popular as I thinkmost folks now, especially here in the US and there seems tobe kind of this myth going around that it’s healthier thanregular yogurt.[0:40:07.0]And what it comes down to is, it really, really depends on thetype of Greek yogurt that you get because for example, Greekyogurt does tend to have lower amount of carbs, moreamount of protein, tends to be because of the absence of thelarge amount of whey, lower potential for animmunoglobulin allergic reaction to it. It tends to be, forpeople who are into kind of a whole high-fat-low-carb thing,higher in a lot of those fats and it just tends to taste prettydarn good. Greek yogurt can also, if it’s made with thetraditional fermentation technique, be a little bit higher inprobiotics. For some of those reasons, I think it’s gotten thiswrap as being healthier than regular yogurt but at the sametime, f you go and look at all the major brands of Greekyogurt that you could find in the supermarket, many of themhave had additives and thickeners like milk proteinconcentrate or cornstarch or gelatin or even in some cases,ironically, they’ve had whey protein concentrate added tothem to make them more of that kind of Greek yogurtytexture that tends to sell better and have better mouth fill.
  • So if you’re getting like Yo plate, you’re getting a Greekyogurt with a lot of additives. The same way with Lucerne,which is the brand you get at Safeway here in the states.Brock: And Canada too.Ben: Cabot is another one that has a lot of preservatives as well. Ifyou’re getting yogurt with a bunch of cornstarch added intoit, that’s an issue. There are decent brands out there – StonyField is a really good brand and they use a culturedpasteurized organic milk. The Oikos, that one’s a decentbrand even though it has lower levels of the active yogurtcultures than a Stony Field or a Chobani brand. TradersJoe’s is not bad. That’s another one that’s pretty decent. TheOlympus brand Greek yogurt is also pretty good. And we dida whole podcast where we talked about like if you’re gonnabuy yogurt at the grocery store, which brands are gonna havehigh levels of probiotics and fewer preservatives added tothem and I’ll link to that in the show notes for him. But whatthis comes down to as far as the question about intestinalleakage and gastric distress and inflammation. Commercialdairy is commercial dairy and many people do have adversereactions to yogurt and just about any dairy product and itcan be a combination of the fact that we use cattle especiallyhere in the states that has been bred for what’s called A1protein, which causes more inflammation in humans than anA2 cattle. We, a lot of times, are eating milk products thatare derived from cattle that have been raised in grain-fedsituations and exposed to a lot of antibiotics, exposed to lotsof hormones, and so whether it’s a Greek yogurt or a regularyogurt, yes, it’s going to create issues for you if that’s thecase. Now, an organic yogurt would present fewer of thoseissues. An organic yogurt from a pastured cow would beeven better if you can get a Greek yogurt from an organicpastured cow. And the best bet if you really wanna totallygeek out and be the hairy hippy would be to just find a localfarm, get some raw milk, and make your own yogurt usingyogurt starter and a yogurt machine with milk that you knowis from a clean farm with organic grass-fed cows. But areally, really good resource for you here if you did wanna geta list, not only of good Greek yogurts and regular yogurts butalso just decent dairy products in general, if you’re shopping
  • at a grocery store, would be the book written by Mira andJayson Calton called the Rich Food Poor Food - A really goodresource, fantastic book, I think everyone should have ontheir shelf for just your grocery shopping needs. Iinterviewed them on a podcast. If you go listen to thatepisode and of course, use the Amazon link at Ben GreenfieldFitness to get the book. We get a few dollars thrown in ourhat.Brock: A few shekels.Ben: That’s right. A few shekels. And that one’s called Rich FoodPoor Food. Ultimately, for someone who has an adversereaction to milk, goat’s milk is gonna be better than cow’smilk. And then, of course, using just a coconut milk yogurtor something like that is even gonna be better than using adairy base and that’s just gonna depend on you. I found thata lot of folks, including myself, who don’t do well at all withregular commercial milk, do just fine with unpasteurizedunhomogenized milk from a local raw dairy. And it’s gonnacome down to whether or not that’s available in your area.[0:45:10.9]Jessa and I are members of CSA, which means that we taketurns with 6 other families driving to a local farm andpicking up a bunch of eggs and milk and stuff and then itcomes back into town, we all meet at a central location, grabit and tuck it under our arms and sneak back to the housewhile trying not to get pulled over with our raw milk.Brock: That’s your illegal milk.Ben: That’s right. Our illegal milk.Brock: Such bad asses.Ben: Yes. Wheat is now legal in the state of Washington.Brock: But not raw milk.Ben: Actually, raw milk is legal.Brock: Is it?
  • Ben: Yeah. It’s not like California so they’re not stomping SWATteams in the farms up here yet.Brock: You mentioned cultured milk earlier on. What does it meanwhen…like I’ve seen cultured milk. You can get butter that’sbeen cultured. You can get yogurt that’s from cultured milk.What does that mean exactly when you culture milk?Ben: The way that I understand it is that cultured milk issynonymous with that milk being a fermented milk productso the 2 terms as far as I know, are synonymous andbasically, a cultured milk product would be any type of dairyproduct that’s been fermented. This whole process of lactofermentation like when you go and get a yogurt starter, that’slactic acid bacteria, like a lactobacillus or a lactococcus orany of these different lactic acid bacteria. And when youferment a dairy product or you culture a dairy product inthat manner, it increases the shelf life of the product and it’ssomething humans have been doing for literally tens ofthousands of years. And essentially, what it allows you to dois adjust the taste of the dairy product depending on the typeof starter culture that you use and depending on the type ofdairy that you’re exposing that starter culture to. And so,looking at everything from yogurt to kefir to sour cream tobutter milk to any of these types of things, all are examples ofcultured dairy products. And then, of course, cultured dairyproducts just act a lot better in public. They tend to walkaround with bow ties, high heels, sharp looking dresses…Brock: I see them all the time at the symphony and stuff. They’revery, very high class folks.Ben: Yeah.Brock: That’s good comedy.Steve: Hey Ben! Hey Brock! You’re show kicks butt. First off,before I get to my question, I like to say that I heard of yourpodcast couple of years ago. I did a fun race thickeningCancer society where I raised $70,000 for in for them. Idrummed in for 121 hours straight, breaking a Guinnessworld record in the process. I think you would uphold leakydoubt of the process for preparing actually performing for it
  • and the recovery of the event. The punishment was brutal. Iactually subluxated 4 ribs where it last for a hundred hours.And we believe it was a seizure around hour 116 after mycore temperature plummeted. And if you feel like it, I love togeek out about this, actually the recovery part as after a year,I’m still fatigued, I still get out-of-the-blue strange cramps inmy hands, my arms, my joints. I get headache spasms andsometimes when I’m on the bike, training, I have a difficulttime keeping my heart rate above 120. I just cop out with noenergy. I just can’t keep it there.Ben: Oh gosh!Brock: Well, you broke a Guinness world record along with 4 ribs.Congratulations?Ben: Wow! I can just close my eyes and picture Steve. He’s built alittle bit like animal in the muppets, his hair flying all overthe place and…Brock: No sleeves on any T-shirts.Ben: Tattered T-shirt and tattoos and the complete opposite of thecultured dairy products that we just got done talking.Brock: Exactly. Yeah.Ben: This is a toughy and I should probably jump in here and saythat this is not a medical podcast. I’m not a doctor.Brock: Ben is not a doctor and the content provided on this podcastis for informational purposes only and should not beconstrued as medical or health care advice.Ben: Anyways, what this sounds like to me is an issue with yournervous system and there are conditions kinda similar likewhen you overtrain, except this would be like overtraining allat once. Some people take a year to overtrain your body. Hedid it in 121 hours. He did in 121 hours what some peopletook a year to accomplish. Basically, you’ve got thisautonomic nervous system. And the autonomic nervoussystem is part of your peripheral nervous system. It acts asyour control system. It controls pretty much everythingthat’s below your level of consciousness like your heart rate
  • and your digestion and your respiration rate and salivationand perspiration and all these things that are relativelyinvoluntary.[0:50:05.7]And it’s divided into 2 systems – systems that we’ve talkedabout on the show before – the parasympathetic nervoussystem and the sympathetic nervous system. Theparasympathetic nervous system is that division of yourautonomic nervous system that’s basically your rest anddigest, so that would include your body functions likedigestion and urination. Your sympathetic nervous system isthe part that’s more fight and flight so that’s what wouldtighten blood vessels when you stand up or increase yourheart rate when you’re scared or when you’re getting ready toexercise hard. This whole idea behind an autonomic nervoussystem failure falls under the category of what’s calleddisautonomy, which is autonomic dysfunction. This term iskinda catch-all term that describes any type of malfunctionof your autonomic nervous system. There are a lot ofdifferent kind of conditions that would fall underneath thisumbrella. One is simply referred to as PAF or pureautonomic failure. Pure autonomic failure is a dysfunctionof a lot of these different processes that are controlled by theautonomic nervous system. Typically, what happens whenyou’ve got pure autonomic nervous system failure is yourblood pressures falls really quickly when you stand up so youget dizzy. A lot of times, you become pretty intolerant ofeither really hot or really cold conditions or you havedifficulty controlling your temperature. Sometimes yourpupils will widen like they’ll dilate or they’ll narrow out ofyour control so you’ll have vision issues. Basically, you’ll getblurry vision. Sometimes you’ll have difficulty with bladdercontrol in the same reason that someone who’s overtrainedmight have to get up at night to pee. Someone who’s gotcomplete pure autonomic nervous system failure may justhave trouble with bladder movements all the time and a lotof times, hand in hand with that, a lot of guys get erectiledysfunction. It’s like your autonomic nervous system is justkinda blown up and it’s smoking. As far as how you wouldfind out if this was indeed the case with you, there are tests
  • that they do in a medical setting to find out how strong yourautonomic nervous system is. This might be something thatSteve should go in and do – an autonomic nervous systemtest. One of the things that they do during this test is they’llask you to do a velsalva maneuver. And the velsalvamaneuver is where you blow but you hold your breath at thesame time so you start to blow but you block the breath fromactually getting released from your esophagus. And whathappens is, of course, you get a brief increase in bloodpressure when this happens. But because you’re straining,you’re decreasing the entry of blood from your veins intoyour heart. And so when that happens, your blood pressurebegins to progressively fall. And when your blood pressurebegins to progressively fall, your brain senses that fall inblood pressure and it decreases the outflow of yourparasympathetic nervous system to your heart and then thatcauses you to release a bunch or norepinephrine, whichtightens blood vessels in your body and causes your bloodpressure to go back up. And all this is happening really,really quickly but what happens is, if someone hasautonomic nervous system failure, they don’t get that kind ofresponse and so what happens is they’ll do the velsalvicmaneuver, their blood vessels will constrict, will get thatovershoot of blood pressure but the blood pressure will stayup and so they’ll get this rapid rise in blood pressure. So youcan just do the velsalva maneuver and take your bloodpressure at the same time and you’ll see a big, big rise inblood pressure when that happens. That can be a sign thatyou’ve got some autonomic nervous system issues going on.They also do what’s called the tilt table test, which can testhow well you do with regulating your blood pressure.Brock: I’ve had one of those.Ben: Have you?Brock: Yup!Ben: You did that for the cardiovascular issues that you had.Brock: Yeah. When I had myocarditis.Ben: Exactly. So you know what this is about.
  • Brock: And my heart stopped.Ben: Really? When you got on the tilt table your heart stopped?Brock: Yeah. 2 minutes and 40 seconds into it, my heart stopped,which is not a good thing. It’s not fun.Ben: Wow. Yeah. Scary. Well, we’ll have to tell your story againsome time. Or people can go back and listen to the firstepisode that I had Brock where he told the story about thecarditis. Another test they’ll do is the sweat test ‘cause yourbrain will increase your sweating directly view thesympathetic nervous system traffic to the sweat glands in theskin. And it releases this chemical messenger called theacetylcholine and that acts on your sweat glands to stimulatethe production of sweat. They actually have a special form ofa sweat test that tests the ability of your sympathetic nerveterminals in your skin to release this acetylcholine andincrease your sweat production. The way they do that is theyapply a drug to a patch of skin that would evoke sweating atthe drug site but allows your body to release its ownacetylcholine that results in sweat production.[0:55:18.3]Brock: It’s sweat in just one little spot?Ben: Yup! Exactly. So if you had a loss of sympathetic nerveterminals that would normally release that acetylcholine,applying those patches, you wouldn’t sweat. So that’sanother thing that can test. Another one is the cold watertest where you could dunk your hand in cold water for acouple of minutes and that would normally rapidly increaseyour blood pressure by increasing the activity of thesympathetic nervous system and that wouldn’t happen quiteas readily in someone with the autonomic nervous systemissue. So I know these are a lot of tests but these areexamples of the way that you could test whether or not yournervous system was kinda sunk which when you describeeverything from the inability to get the heart rate up whichsuggest that there probably is a blood pressure heart rateissue to having this fatigue and strange symptoms and whenit first happened you had a seizure and your core
  • temperature plummeted, I suspect that there is an issue herewith the nervous system and it’s something that you could goand test and you could find someone in your area. There is afew on…google it, what’s called an autonomic disordersconsortium and I’ll try and put a link in the show notes foryou. It could help you. What we’re talking about getting isdysautonomia and that would be what you’d wanna look upif you’re interested in some of the commentary even for this.And there are many pharmaceutical treatments that theygive somebody like an antiarrhythmic drug or a beta blocker,a lot of these kinda bandaid type of drugs. If it were me,again, don’t misconstrue this as medical advice but I’d lookinto this the same way that I would look into something likeovertraining because overtraining really is a little bit ofnervous system fatigue. Two things that I would really lookinto that I found help out people quite a bit when they’ve gotsome adrenal fatigue and some nervous system overtraininggoing on which typically, I would look at by just seeing asharp drop in their heart rate variability. One would beadaptogenic herbs and adaptogenic herbs simply allow yourenergy system to reset and they relieve a lot of these adrenalstressors. The herbal tonic that I use for something like thisis Tian Chi and it’s just got a lot of traditional herbs in therethat basically helps to restore balance, restore chi in yourbody. The other thing that can happen when you havenervous system dysfunction is you get a real, real imbalancein your electrolyte status. Typically, you tend to retain a lotof sodium and you tend to lose a lot of trace minerals andminerals that are really, really important to your generalphysiologic function. And so for that reason, I alsorecommend a good trace mineral supplement to folks whoare overtrained or have a lot of issues like this. Now, I don’tguarantee that this stuff would help with autonomic nervoussystem dysfunction but those are 2 things I would at leastlook into from a nutriceutical standpoint. And I’ll certainlyput links to both of these in the show notes. They’re part ofthe Recovery Pack that I recommend to people over at PacificElite Fitness. So, Tian Chi Chinese adaptogenic herb, a goodmineral complex and then look into some of these tests toinvestigate whether or not it really is an autonomic nervoussystem issue. If it is, you’re probably going to need to do
  • some of the other things that I recommend to folks whoovertrain, which is, avoid any type of stimulating exercise.Stick to some easy yoga, a lot of relaxation, a lot of stresscontrol until you get to the point where your nervous systemhas recovered. That’s just a kind of brief glimpse to some ofthe stuff that I would look into.Brock: As he say, no disrespect to people with epilepsy, but afteryou’ve been drumming for 116 hours, how did you know youhad a seizure?Ben: Yeah. How did you know?Brock: When it just looked like you’re playing the drums?Ben: It should probably go without saying but I wouldn’t bedrumming anytime soon. And I actually would not be doingmuch in the way of flipping the radio to metallica or anythingelse that has heavy drumming involved. I am incidentally,the only person in my family who doesn’t play the drums. Allmy siblings play the drums.Brock: Some people would say that’s a good thing.Ben: Well, I grew up playing the violin. I was a contrarian, notplay the guitar.Brock: Some people would say that’s not a good thing.[1:00:00.0]JD: Hey Ben and Brock! This is JD coming from Athens,Georgia. I will not say where the surgery occurred nor whoperformed it to protect the doctors and hospital but it wasnot in Georgia so Georgians can rest safe. I had a surgeryabout 2 years ago to fix a kidney problem I had. I’m 21 now.I grew up with my whole life undergoing about 60-80surgeries for my kidney. This particular problem in questionwas an extreme diverticulitis along with a few other thingsthat happened. The surgery was successful but in thesurgery, while making an incision in my back, my right lowerthoracic nerve was cut. This injury causes me a great deal ofpain everyday and I would like to know if there are anytreatment other than the neurontin I am prescribed. Thank
  • you also so much for all the you do. Thanks to you all andothers like Dave Asprey, Sean Croxton and Clark Danger, I’min the best shape of my life. Thank you.Brock: I bet you’re in a great deal of pain. That sounds terrible.Ben: Yeah. And gosh! Right lower thoracic nerve was cut. Thereis some stuff you can do for nerve pain and this seems likeanother medically question.Brock: Yeah. Refer back to the previous announcement of Ben notbeing a doctor.Ben: You probably heard of TENS units before for low back pain,right, Brock?Brock: Yeah. I even used them.Ben: Yeah. This kind of overpowers some of the same stimulationsthat would tend to cause pain. You can actually get what’scalled the peripheral nerve stimulation devices that areelectrodes placed along the course of specific peripheralnerves to control pain. And once the electrodes are in place,they turn on and they administer this kind of weak electricalcurrent and you get this tingling sensation instead of painstimulating that same sensory pathway. You can work with aneuro surgeon or a pain clinic to get one of these type ofdevices and you can run an internal battery pack similar to apace maker battery. A lot of times, for people who have pain,that can help you to resume a lot of your normal activities atdaily living and even exercise and things like that even ifyou’ve got significant post-operative pain. One thing that Iwould look into would be peripheral nerve stimulation.There are things that you can do and these would be thesame type of things that I would recommend to people whowanted to really have healthy nerves, improve nervefunction, improve reaction time, stuff like that. These arethe same type of things that can also help to rebuild nervesor at least relieve some of the nerve pain. One of the thingsthat I would recommend that you do is look into a good fattyacid balance. Not only will adequate fatty acids help toreduce a lot of the free radical generation, what’s called theperoxide generation that can cause some of these pains but it
  • can balance out your omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acid ratio.Specifically, there’s a type of fatty acid called gamma linoleicacid, which can really help with nerve health – borage oil,which you may have heard of before. It’s something that hasreally, really high amounts of gamma linoleic acid in it.Primrose oil is another. What happens is these particularoils will increase blood flow in the nervous system areas,which helps to decrease a lot of the stress that the nerve canbe under. It can also help to improve nerve function ingeneral. As far as a particular supplement for that, I wouldrecommend the Fish Oil that I really stand behind and that’sthe Living Fuel Super Essentials Fish Oil. There are a bunchof different fish oils that are on the market. Most of them doyou more harm than good because they’re either rancid orthey’re not packaged along with antioxidants. And some ofthe things that help protect fish oil from going rancid or elsethey’re not balanced properly with things like a little bit ofomega 6, gamma linoleic acid from something like borageseed oil. So the super Essentials Omega that I recommendand it’s the Fish Oil that I use, it’s got an ultra pure fish oil inits natural triglyceride form so it’s not in that poorlyabsorbed ethyl esther form. It’s got some vitamin D andsome vitamin A antioxidants in it. It’s got a full spectrumvitamin E in it. It’s got a very, very powerful cretinoid calledastaxanthin in it and it is the best fish oil I have ever seen inmy life. So that’s the one that I get. That’s the one that mykids use and it’s got about 3:2…. (I’m sorry it’s not 3:2, mostfish oils have 3:2.) 1:1 EPA to DHA ratio. And since higherlevels of DHA are optimal for your brain and your nervefunction and over-all health, really, really favorable ratio, sothat is a fish oil that I will certainly vouch for and standbehind. The best one that I can recommend if you’re gonnause a fish oil and you don’t want a lot of damage that some ofthese conventional fish oils can cause. So I’d look into that.[1:05:18.1]A few other things that really, really help with nerve functionare of course, your B complex vitamins. Optimization ofvitamin D, E and of course, vitamin B, when it come toreplacing your entire vitamin B complex as well asoptimizing your vitamin D and your vitamin E levels,
  • probably the top thing that I would recommend for thatwould be something that I personally use every single day. Idon’t necessarily use it for nerve function or pain. I use it tomitigate the effects of a toxic lifestyle. Lord knows howmany cigarettes I smoke, in addition to how manychlorinated pools I jump into (I don’t smoke, by the way, justso you know), toxins, pollutants, etc. I use this stuff calledLifeshotz. It’s got about 500% of your daily values of vitaminD. It’s got your entire vitamin B complex in it from folate toB12, B6, pantothenic acid, ribloflavin, everything in really,really high amounts. It has some magnesium in it, which isan amino acid that’s chelated that some of these compoundsto help them get absorbed a little bit more quickly, and it’salso got zinc in it. Zinc and magnesium are actually 2 of themost common mineral deficiencies that you experience withnerve pain because what happens is, you get an unregulatedpathway in terms of the way that signals are transmitted innerves when you got magnesium or zinc deficiencies. Sosomething like this would really cover your bases if you’relooking at something like nerve health especially if youcombine it with a supplement like a good high, high qualityfish oil. So those are a couple of the main things I would lookinto when it comes to just pure pain control and painmanagement. There is one particular supplement calledPhenocane. It’s got Phenylalanine in it, which has the abilityto help your brain maintain higher levels of serotonin, so itcan help with mood elevation and reduce pain in general -this DL Phenylalanine precursor. There is also high, highdoses of turmeric in it, which can have a decent pain killingeffect. And along the same lines of that, what are calledcurcuminoids, which are the sub particles that make upcurcumin, and again, are part of the whole turmeric thing.So that’s one that I would recommend in general. It’s thebest alternative to ibuprofen and Advil and stuff like that.Brock: I took 2 of those yesterday after I got back from getting myteeth cleaned at the dentist.Ben: What? Phenocane?Brock: Yeah. It helped a lot ‘cause my teeth were just...they scrapedall that tartar off there and just rinse.
  • Ben: It’s better than just dumping a bunch of turmeric in yourmouth, too, ‘cause then, your teeth are orange and you gottago back to the dentist and it creates a vicious cycle. So thoseare some of the main things that I would recommend. I’mtrying to think if there’s anything else when it comes to nervehealth and nerve pain. I guess a lot of these chronic paintype of pharmaceutical drugs that they will prescribe for youlike neurontin, they do decrease pain but they can alsoproduce excessive sleepiness, which can result in a little bitof addictive potential down the road. They can cause weightgain. They can cause you to feel like you probably shouldn’tbe driving a piece of heavy machine or anywhere. There aresome definite issues with addiction to some of those paindrugs so I’d be pretty careful with that and maybe try someof these natural things that I’ve talked about. I guess theonly thing I didn’t mention, which we kind of alluded towhen we’re talking about the China study earlier in thispodcast, was glutathione. Glutathione is pretty much one ofthe most potent free radical scavengers that you canconsume and you are gonna get a lot of free radicalsproduced when your body is healing like this or when you’reunder a lot of pain like this so I would look into usingsomething like the sublingual glutathione that you sprayunderneath your tongue. That gets absorbed a lot betterthan an oral glutathione. So that’s be another one. I know Ijust mentioned a bunch of stuff. I’ll link to all of it in theshow notes as well as in the MyList for this episode. And theother thing would be acupuncture. That’d be one of thethings that I would definitely look into for pain management.That is again, a natural method that has some efficacy andsome good studies behind it in terms of its pain-killing effect.[1:10:07.4]Kyle: Hi Ben! This is Kyle. I come from Auckland, New Zealand.I just listened to a podcast of Jay from Evo Athlete, talkingabout some really interesting stuff. I knew there’s somereally good information but I didn’t understand half of whathe’s saying. It was like I needed a translator to put it intoreally easy-to-understand language so I could understand.I’m sure there’d be other people there with more questionsand answers about some of these concepts and that sounds
  • really, really interesting. So I was hoping you could explain alittle bit more detail or just make it easy to understand so wecan incorporate some of these ideas and philosophies intoour triathlon training. I enjoy the show. Keep it up. Thanksmuch.Brock: The thing I’m most curious about is, how can I incorporatethat trick where he was putting people on the back of histruck and driving at 60 miles an hour and then making themrun. I wanna run 60 miles an hour.Ben: I think it was like 30 miles an hour and it was for very, veryshort distances but yeah, that’s over speed training. Sinceyou asked, one of the ways that I’m personally replicatingthat is by simply running downhills as fast as possible on softsurfaces. So I literally have the same hill that I run up, that’sbehind my house, has this sand/dirt lawn that runs alongbeside it and that’s a super, super soft landing so I run downthat as fast as my little legs will carry me. That’s one of theways that I’ve been doing some over speed training. I’ve alsobeen doing some fin work and some elastic tubing work inthe pool, also to work on that over speed component, that isone of the components that Jay was talking about. And thensome super, super high cadence efforts on the bike, meaningpedaling the bike at 150+ RPMBrock: Wow! you can get a 150+?Ben: I can. My goal is to get up to about 180. I wanna train myleg muscles to turn over as quickly as possible so that Iproduce a higher economy and efficiency at lower speeds,training my body to pedal at those really high RPMs likeprofessional cyclists are able to pedal at. But with theeconomy and the efficiency that appears to have beendisproven in the study that I just talked about, probablybecause a lot of the recreational cyclists are not practicingpedaling at these higher intensities.Brock: I’ve been practicing for almost probably, a year and half nowand the highest I’ve ever hit is 135,Ben: Yeah. One of the issues that people look at as wanting tohave some resistance when they’re pedaling and actually, you
  • don’t want the resistance, you do need to remove theresistance when you do something like this and use a very,very low resistance and then just pedal fast, fast, fast. That’sone aspect of this whole Evo Athlete thing: Over speedtraining. And I’m probably not gonna say any of this quite aswell as Jay Schroeder, the gentleman I had on the podcast. Iliterally went through a 2-day conference with him so I’mcompressing into this brief answer what he and I…Brock: We’ve got 3 minutes. Go!Ben: Yeah. Exactly. So, over speed work to improve thatneuromuscular coordination and the efficiency and theeconomy at lower speeds doing over speed work like fins andbends in the pool in short, short repeats and then doing overspeed work and a run by even including something like softsurface downhill repeats, and then also including over speedwork on the bike by using low resistance really high, highcadence. So I’m doing one workout per week that is a highcadence type of workout for swimming, one for running, andone for cycling. In addition to that, Jay has me doing somethings that…I actually showed a video for…in a post that I’mgoing to put as a link in the show notes this episode, Episode#235 over at bengreenfieldfitness.com. What I did was Ilisted what a typical week of training looks like for me rightnow and I published it on my personal blog. The address isbengreenfieldtri.blogspot.com. But I’ll link to it in the shownotes as well. I addition to that over speed stuff that I’mdoing, Jay also has me doing essentially, pen drops, whereyou’ll drop a pen or a small object that you can hold withyour arm. Brock, you just screwed up this thing.Brock: I was holding a pen. You’re not supposed to drop it.Ben: A small child, a puppy. Basically, you drop it and then youcatch it as quickly as possible and so you can do lateral pendrops with your arm outstretched where you open yourhand, drop it, catch it as quickly as possible and then you canalso do it, for example, bent over with the arm bent similaras what you do with the one-arm dumbbell row, you drop,catch and repeat.[1:15:08.3]
  • Jay has instructed me to do these exercises before or after orin between a swim set or something like that and so Iactually have been swimming with a pen beside the pool.And in between those over speed sets that I talked about, I’lljust grab a pen and do 10 drops for one hand and 10 dropsfor the other hand. What that’s doing is, it’s training mynervous system and it’s training my sub-conscious almost toreact more quickly, to anticipate. And so again, we’re talkingabout improved economy, improved efficiency, betterneuromuscular balance, better turnover, that type of thing.That’s another thing that I’m doing and another way that I’vepractically utilized some of the stuff that he’s instructed me.The electrostimulation component of this, I’m only doingthat once a week. With Jay’s athletes, what he recommendsis this electrostimulation unit called ARP Wave. I believeARP stands for accelerated recovery program but this is verydifferent than a standard electrical muscle stimulation unit.It’s a specific wave form of electricity that allows the currentto penetrate really deep to your muscle tissue withoutcausing skin burns and stuff like that. And also, basically,without causing the muscle to spasm and for you to losecontrol over the muscle. So it works a little bit moreharmoniously with your nervous system. Now, I don’t ownan ARP Wave because it’s very expensive and I haven’t had achance to purchase one. Yes, there are a lot of 1-10-dollardonations that come in for this podcast. We truly appreciatethem but they don’t justify me going out and buying an$8,000…I believe it tops out at $13,000 EMS unit. I do havean electrical muscle stimulation unit that apparently, I’veeven asked Jay and he’s like “it’s a waste of time, youshouldn’t use it.” But I actually, have noticed a little bit ofbenefit personally from this experimenting with it. I haveone called the Compex Sport Elite and it’s not cheap either.It’s like $1,000 or $ 1,500 unit. But what I do is once a week,I’ve been hooking these electrodes up to my quads and thendoing another set on my hamstrings and I do a pre-programset on the EMS unit that’s called and Explosive Strength set.It puts my muscles on a really high frequency and it cansimulate up to really, really heavy squat. Basically, mymaximum squat, I can get that same type of feel in themuscles and so I’m stimulating a whole bunch of muscle
  • fibers all at once and training my nervous system withoutactually causing the same type of joint use or impact that I’dget if I were to go out and do a bunch of hill repeats or go outand do a bunch of squats or lunges. What I’ve been doing ispreceding my Saturday bike ride with a muscle stimulationsession and I found that I feel as though I can recruit moremuscles and have better coordination when I’m riding thebike after I’ve woken up my muscles, so to speak using thiselectrical muscle stimulation. So that’s another kind ofcomponent. I’m using the cheap version of the ARP Wavebut that’s how I’m using that. And then, the othercomponent of this, and this is one that I’ve been prescribedthe most of by Jay and that is the whole Isometric Extreme.Isometric means that you hold a contraction with no changein muscle length or as would be the case with doing a 5-minute squat, a very, very slow change in muscle length.And there’s a few benefits that you derive from that. Onewould be that it teaches you perfect technique and perfectpositioning. The idea behind proper positioning means thatyou’re able to maintain really, really good technique andreduce your risk of injury from poor biomechanics duringtraining. So I will be doing something like an extremeisometric lunge. When I was doing this last night, where Iwill literally hold the lunge position for 4-5 minutes on oneleg with that leg fully contracted. And that teaches me very,very good positioning, good strength of my big toe, goodstrength of the same muscles that are responsible for thepush-up phase while running or the turnover phase whilecycling. And so that’s one benefit to the isometric training.Another benefit is that you’re really able to put all of yourmental intent into the correct musculature and so you getvery, very good body awareness and what’s calledkinesthesia. The main thing that I’ve noticed is that I ammore aware of my posture and I’m more aware of where mybody is at in space when I’m forced to hold these positionsfor long periods of time whether it be a planking or asquatting or a lunging position or whatever the case may be.[1:20:13.0]Pull-up position is another one, a door frame push-up, whichis basically a standing push-up is another one he has me
  • doing. So that’s another thing this has helped with. Theother thing that isometric exercise can do is it can help withyour flexibility. So when you hold an isometric contractionat the deepest joint angle possible such as a deep lungeposition, for example. You’re not only training yourselfneuromuscularly and posturally, but you also improve yourrange of motion when you’re moving through a hold like thatand holding the end-point range of motion for a long periodof time. I’ve found that I have a little bit better knee driveand little bit better toe off from these types of isometric holdsI’ve been doing. Remember, I’ve only been training for 2weeks and I’m already noticing a significant difference.Another thing that happens is a ton of lactic acid build up inthe muscle because when you’re holding an isometriccontraction, it shuts up the blood pumps to the muscle so themuscle gets engorged with blood and metabolic by-productsfrom this contraction and that lactic acid environment vastlyimproves the amount of buffering capacity that the musclehas and the ability of the muscle to, once you release thatcontraction, shuttle all that lactic acid back up to the liver tobe reconverted into glucose and kinda turn back into usableenergy. So those are some of the benefits of doing theisometric training and it’s something I’m doing almosteveryday. He’s got me doing isometric squats, isometriclunges, isometric push-up holds.Brock: You know what my favorite isometric move is?Ben: The squatty potty?Brock: The isometric teeth clench when I’m around delicious food.Ben: Yeah. That’s another good one. Anyways though, as Brocktotally derails my train of thought.Brock: Somebody had to.Ben: That’s it. That’s a long answer, I know but those are thebasics. Hopefully, that gives you a basic idea of some of theways that this practically flashes out and manifests in myown training protocol. I’m working on implementing someof these concepts on some of the minimalist training protocolconcepts, not only into the book that I’m writing right now
  • but also in the protocols of a lot of the athletes that I’mworking with through Pacific Elite Fitness. Brock, I believeI’ve had you doing a little bit of particularly, the lunge-basedextreme isometrics.Brock: Yeah. And all the super slow stuff on it. It’s strangely hard.At first, I was like “oh, this is merely boring and lame” butthen, I’m like shaking and sweating and “okay, I get it.”Ben: Yeah. Especially, after a run. As I just alluded to it also,vastly improves your form on something like a squatty potty.Brock: That’s true. Jay, you should probably tune in to the April27th webinar that Ben’s doing then ask Ben about anythingminimalist triathlon training ‘cause he can probably talkabout a lot of this kind of stuff there.Ben: I ain’t gonna go over that quite a bit but it’s Kyle, not Jay.Brock: Oh, sorry.Ben: Jay is the coach. Kyle is the question.Brock: How am I supposed to keep all these names straight?There’s me, there’s you, there’s Jay, there’s Kyle.Ben: And of course, we have weed man.Brock: Weed man. There we go.Anonymous: Ben, I’m wondering what your thoughts are on smokingmarijuana and the effects it might have on endurance sports.I primarily compete in the marathon. When I do smoke, it’sin the evenings long after I trained, which is primarily in themorning and I’ll do it maybe 2 or 3 times per week. Okay.Thank you.Brock: Okay.Ben: Well, first of all, let me say that I live in one of two lucky,lucky states – Washington State. And I have been accusedbefore of smoking a big fatty before this podcast becausepeople said that I sound like I’m high when we’re recordingand I guarantee you I am not.Brock: I never said that.
  • Ben: If you hear me start to open potato chip bags, perhaps thatmeans that I’ve gotten to that point. But at this point, Iactually keep myself relatively marijuana-free despite thefact that it’s very, very easy to get your hands on downWashington state and you have to be far less nervous aboutdrugs around in your car, for example. That being said,marijuana, interestingly, has been shown to result in betterlung function. Pot smokers have been shown to have betterlung function, not only better lung function than cigaretteand tobacco smokers but better lung function than peoplewho didn’t smoke at all.[1:25:10.1]Brock: What?Ben: And the reason for that is because marijuana is abronchodilator. Because of that, it may have a performanceenhancing effect and so that would be the first reason that itwould potentially violate the ability for it to not be on theWorld Anti-Doping Association list because it does, indeed,appear on the list of prohibited substances and methods bythe WADA. There are 3 criteria that are named by theWADA that something has to be performance enhancing,something has to be potentially health risk or something hasto be against the spirit of the sport for it to be consideredsomething that would get you banned from an Ironmantriathlon or the Olympics or something like that. Cannabis,not only as I just mentioned, has the potential to be abronchodilator but it may also have potential to decreaseyour anxiety and decrease your fear. My personal opinion isthat it decreases your anxiety and your fear too much.Brock: So much that you don’t get off the couch.Ben: Yeah. There’s this whole parabolic curve in sportspsychology that the tip of the curve is the zone and you canbe either overly stimulated or not stimulated enough and Iwould imagine that cannabis would keep you towards thelow end of that zone.Brock: But that was the main reason all us Canadians remember theday when Ross Rebagliati was stripped of his snowboarding
  • medal in the Winter Olympics because he was caught withcannabis in his system and I think that was the primary thingthey were going after him for was that he would take awayhis inhibition and he was able to snowboard better becausehe didn’t care if he lived or died.Ben: Yeah. Ironically, though, it can also decrease cognitiveperformance and so that’s why it would violate that secondcriteria by the World Anti-Doping Association is being apotential health risk. Even though I really don’t think it hasany pulmonary toxicity, I think it probably improves lungfunction from all the evidence that I’ve seen but I guess itwould depend the way that you would smoke it, too and whatyou’re smoking it through. The last thing would be the wholerole model issue and whether or not there’d be somenegative perception by your sponsors or the media or thepublic or something like that but also just generally, the rolemodel for perhaps younger athletes who are looking to youas a role model and who, if they did start to use marijuana,wouldn’t necessarily be of the mindset to be able to use itresponsibly or properly or not overuse it, that type of thing.Those are some of the reasons that a professional athlete orsomeone who is in the limelight or even someone who iscompeting in a sanctioned even would wanna stay away frommarijuana. I personally do not think that it improvesendurance performance even with its bronchodilatory effect.I haven’t seen any evidence that it would increase time tofatigue or performance in a time trial or something like that.If there is evidence out there that I’m unaware of, if there arepeople out there doing case studies and any experiments,leave your comment in the show notes. Go for it and I’mcurious to hear if there is evidence but as far as I know, it’snot really gonna help you out significantly and it is banned.Brock: There you go. And that ends the questions for today. We’reall out of question.Ben: Well, you have a question, Brock.Brock: Yes. I guess I do have a question.Ben: Brock, what is your main concern at the hill climbing andthen losing weight?
  • Brock: Well, the losing weight thing is just more of a feeling thananything. I don’t actually feel like…I’m certainly notoverweight for general population. But you look at thepeople who are winning marathons and well, first all, they’rea foot shorter than me and they’re good 25 lbs lighter thanme. So I just feel like that would definitely be an advantagelosing some weight even on the flat ground and certainly onthe hills.Ben: Yeah. I would recommend some of the things that Ipersonally do when I’m trying to significantly (and with agreat focus) lean up for an event. And I don’t even take mybody fat, I don’t get on a scale or anything like that. I pinch alittle fat section right above the hip and that’s how I keeptrack of whether or not I’m in low enough body weight/bodyfat to really be able to have a good power to weight ratio forrunning or biking.Brock: Right above the hip in the front or in the back?[1:30:03.6]Ben: In the front. Right there above the hip bone. And some ofthe things that I do is, first of all, I don’t, as I think I’vementioned before in this podcast, engage heavily in fastedmorning workouts and fasted morning cardio but I doimplement 12 hours of zero eating into every single 24-hourcycle. And during that 12-hour time frame of zero eating,each 12-hour frame must include at least 5 minutes of coldthermogenesis combined with approximately 20 minutes ofaerobic movement. For me, the aerobic movement istypically my morning ritual (if you will), which is yoga anddeep breathing. And I do a bunch of different yogamovements combined with deep breathing. I throw a littlebit of calisthenics in there like some body weight squats andsome moves like that. You’ll see that on your program that Iwrite for you in Training Peaks, there is that stretch that Iinstruct you to do everyday. That’s your stretch protocols.Now, especially this time of year as the weather is gettingnicer, you can do those and kinda keep yourself a little bitchilly as you do them. So what I’ve been doing is I’ll do mycold thermogenesis in the shower and because it’s going to
  • the point where it’s about anywhere from 45-50 degrees inthe morning here in Spokane, I’ll go outside of my backporch and granted it is chilly and I wear socks because myfeet get really cold. But I’ll do that entire stretching protocolout there. And I’ll do all of this in a fasted state. For me,typically, based off the time that I eat dinner and the timethat I tend to eat breakfast 12 hours later, I’m usually doingthis type of thing still an hour or 2 before I even eatbreakfast. So after I’ve done this, this active movement afterthe cold thermogenesis, I still got an hour to being in a fastedstate. And the only thing that I’ll consume during this time,and this is typically before I do the cold exposure, is somecaffeine. For me, it’s either green tea or coffee everytime andthat caffeine can speed up the utilization of fatty acids evenmore.Brock: Okay.Ben: But I don’t cheat on that. That’s literally everyday. WhenI’m traveling in airports, a lot of times, I will check into thelounge and do the whole cold shower thing just so that I keepthat practice up as much as possible. That’s something that Ipersonally found. I know it flies under the radar and itseems like a weird technique but when it comes to stuff thatseems to work really, really well, that’s one thing. Anotherthing that I’ve been doing quite a bit of when I want to shedweight fast is about 30 minutes prior to dinner, I’ve beendoing this insulin sensitizer. That’s the bitter melon extract,that MPX 100 stuff. If you don’t have that on hand, a coupleof teaspoons of cinnamon will have kind of a similar effect.It’s not quite as potent but it can work and so you can stir acouple teaspoons of cinnamon up, you can just eat them aslong as you don’t sneeze cinnamon all over the place.Putting it into decaffeinated tea in the evening is one waythat you can do this. And you want that in your system about30 minutes prior to your evening meal so that your insulinresponse is a little bit lower and your blood glucose levelsstay more stabilized so you get a little bit less of a fat storageresponse to your evening meal.Brock: Okay.
  • Ben: That also helps out quite a bit along with simply avoiding alot of that evening snacking. The 2 ways that I avoid anevening snacking that work best for me are, I use theseenergy bits, which are the LG tablets. I’ll do about 20-25 ofthose when my wife’s making popcorn, I’ll pop some ofthose. That, or I’ll do the amino acids capsules. Both, I’vefound to be quite effective in reducing night time cravingsand keeping me from engaging the type of eating at nightthat I found adds up day after day in terms of keeping youfrom shedding fat.Brock: So you’d avoid the popcorn when Jessa’s making popcorn,you don’t partake?Ben: I do not partake. She puts a hell of a lot of butter on thatstuff, too. For me, sure, I’ll eat it when we’re sitting aroundduring the holidays or whatever, but when I’m creeping upon race season, that’s the kind of stuff that I will eliminate.Brock: Yeah.Ben: The other thing that I will really, really focus on, especiallywhen I’m trying to stay lean and pretty much, I’ve gotten intothe point where this podcast is the only time I don’t do this,is for every hour that I’m sitting and I do have a standingwork station but sometimes I do sit whether it’s to write anarticle or when I’m traveling, etc., I have to do 100 jumpingjacks for every hour that I sit. So if I’m not able to get upevery hour and do those 100 jumping jacks and I do have mybutt planted, say on an airplane for a couple of hours orsomething like that, that number ups to 200.[1:35:12.7]So it’s pretty much this rule that for every hour that you’resitting, you gotta do 100 jumping jacks. That’s kinda thisconcept of greasing the groove and keeping the metabolismelevated. That’s another thing that works really, really wellfor me when it comes to little Jedi tricks throughout the daythat assists for fat loss. You know, a lot of the other stuff Ikinda already have worked into your program, such as nottoo much chronic cardio, doing some sprints, doing someheavy lifting, doing the kind of stuff that results in that fat
  • burning hormonal response, your diet plan right now, wekinda have you plugged in to the higher-fat-lower-carb-moderate-protein approach. And of course, that also isgonna be efficacious for you to stay with that. You also haveall kind of the meal plans that I shared with you for eachdifferent phase of your training, right?Brock: Yeah. I just went through leading up to the race on Sunday, Iwas doing the pre-race week meals. Even though I didn’tfollow it strictly, it certainly gave me a great guideline tofollow.Ben: Right.Brock: If I didn’t have exactly those ingredients in the fridge, at leastI was able to be like, “oh, okay well, I don’t have chicken butI’ve got some pork or some beef I can use.Ben: Right. Exactly. And so what you would do now that we’reback into a build phase for your next race is, you would bringback in the meal plan phase for the build week. And thatwould be the one that you’d use here going forward and it’sstill what the build week does is, it’s low carbohydrate 5 daysof the week and then it cycles up your carbs on Saturday andkinda moderate carb on Sunday and then drops you back onto low carb on Monday rather than say, like an off seasoneating phase where you’d be low carb everyday, for example,or a base training phase where I have a little less protein inthe base training phase than into the build training phasebecause you’re beating up your body a little bit more with thebuild training.Brock: Gotcha.Ben: That’s the concept behind that. Now, as far as the hills go, Ithink that one of the things that we may wanna consideradding into your program, even above and beyond just theweight thing, and we did this a little bit last year and that’sLydiard hill repeats.Brock: Yeah. The bounding and the skipping, dipping up the hill.Ben: Exactly. Those are the workouts where you skipped up thehill and then jogged recovery back down and then you bound
  • up the hill and then you jogged recovery back down. Andthen the last one was just straight up sprinting up the hilland then jog recovery back down. These were kind of basedoff of Arthur Lydiard’s Hill Training Protocols and he reallyused these as one of the keys in speed training and in notonly running form but also hill climbing abilities. I thinkthat we may want to consider instead of some of the straightup hill work sprints, that kind of stuff we’ve been doing.Actually working the Lydiard’s back into your program, Ithink that we should consider throwing those back in.Brock: Yeah. I’ve started. Leading up to the races, I had a lot ofthose runs where you basically, hike up the hill and then runlike crazy when you get to the top. Those are really hard butthey weren’t a very different system.Ben: Yeah. Exactly. Those are designed to load you up with lacticacid and then it enforces you to run with high levels of lacticacid in your muscle.Brock: Yeah. Actually, when I go to one of the hills in the race, I feltlike I should be hiking up with big swing in your arms.Ben: Exactly. A big reason for that is we were working on strengtha lot in the off season and do the base training. But what I’mgonna do this week when I sit down to work on your plan is,work in a Lydiard hill phase. We’ll do Lydiard’s at least oncea week for the next month and use that to improve your hillclimbing.Brock: When it’s actually of the time of year when I can start doingthat, too ‘cause in the middle of the winter, it’s prettyimpossible to do that and that’s dangerous, in fact, with allthe snow and ice all over the place, I would have broken myankle and perhaps my neck.Ben: I thought you were like a hockey player, ice skater, ballerinadude.Brock: I am. If you want me to wear ski skates on the hill, that’s nota bad idea.Ben: They call the tutu, the ballerina thing that guys wear or is itsomething different?
  • Brock: No. Guys don’t wear tutus.Ben: What do they call your get-up?Brock: Tights.Ben: Tights.Brock: I guess sometimes, unitard?Ben: Unitard. Go out and do Lydiard’s on your unitard, all right?Brock: And my hockey skates.Ben: There you go. That’s where I would start, Brock and that’llkinda go after the fat burning in the hill climbing and that’ssome of the stuff that we’ll start into.Brock: Sounds good. I think I’ve got a blend and it starts witheating a bunch of pop corn.Ben: This was a good podcast. I know we went on for a while. Iffolks want resources to go along with this episode, just visitthe show notes over at bengreenfieldfitness.com, Episode#235. We will embed our MyList for this episode right thereso you can have access to some handy dandy resources thatyou can even share with your Facebook friends and you canalways drop a few bucks in the hat while you’re there tosupport the podcast. And of course, we always appreciatereviews on iTunes, preferably, the positive variety if possible.So if you haven’t yet subscribed or left a review in iTunes, godo it. What are you waiting for? And for people who are atPaleo FX this weekend, I’ll be down at Paleo FX in Austin,Texas. I am not Paleo but I will be there in my grouchremarks Paleo disguise.Brock: The cave man bone in your hair?Ben: Which is the one without the milk moustache and the caveman bone in my hair, exactly. I think that’s about it and wewill not burden you with any of our country twang this week.Brock: Never again.Ben: That’s right. This is Ben and Brock signing out frombengreenfieldfitness.com. Have a great week.