Dishonest Dr DS Grieve Special Inquiry 2 november 2010 (2)


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Dishonest Dr DS Grieve Special Inquiry 2 november 2010 (2)

  2. 2. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 315 Page 317 1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 2 NOVEMBER 2010] 1 more of a lengthy answer there? 2 [09:34] COMMISSIONER: Let’s all switch our 2 ADV NEL: Yes. 3 phones off, thank you. Thank you very much. We are on 3 DR GRIEVE: In terms of our agreement, if 4 record. Today is the 2nd of November 2010. We are 4 you’re looking at the black and white, yes, okay? But in 5 proceeding in our inquiry in the matter of Dr D S Grieve 5 the same breath, Bill was in the country and he actually 6 Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in liquidation). Parties 6 went with me to that property and he was fully aware that 7 present, we have counsel, Mr Gerry Nel, instructed by Mr 7 we were going to use it as – a part of that, for that 8 Haroon Laher, of both Bowman Gilfillan and he’s assisted by 8 deposit on the house and he was aware that that would be 9 Ms Bianca Masterton and Mr Bele Kathrada. We have Dr 9 used for that purpose. His understanding was that we would10 Grieve this morning and Robyn Cohen, who’s doing our 10 replace that money as we got the money from Creda or from11 transcription. Dr Grieve, before we went on record, I just 11 Mr Veldkamp. So I understand what the contract says, yes,12 enquired about Mr Storm’s whereabouts and you told me that 12 and I concede to that, but he was aware of the property.13 he’s still ill. 13 He actually visited the property with us and he actually14 DR GRIEVE: That’s what I’ve heard, ja. 14 took some photographs of the property as well.15 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Are you still 15 ADV NEL: But was he aware that of this16 comfortable speaking to us without Mr Storm? 16 R4.4 million you were going to use some of those funds as a17 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 17 deposit on a property in circumstances where that deposit18 COMMISSIONER: Okay. And then of course 18 may be forfeited entirely?19 you’ll bring it to my attention the moment that you become 19 DR GRIEVE: I don’t believe he was aware20 uncomfortable? 20 of that, no.21 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 21 ADV NEL: Did he ever see that agreement22 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Just place you 22 of sale that was concluded?23 under oath again, please. 23 DR GRIEVE: No.24 DR GRIEVE: d.s.s 24 ADV NEL: So what we have is the written,25 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. 25 which you conceded records that that full R4.4 million must Page 316 Page 318 1 Please proceed, Mr Nel. 1 go to Bridging Solutions? 2 ADV NEL: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 2 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 3 Dr Grieve, morning. We discussed yesterday near the close 3 ADV NEL: So you would agree with me that 4 of proceedings the agreement of sale in respect of the Mooi 4 that R1.5 million that was used as a deposit, is in fact 5 Kloof property, do you recall that? 5 Bridging Solutions finances – Bridging Solutions money, 6 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 6 would you agree with that? 7 ADV NEL: And in that regard you had paid 7 DR GRIEVE: In terms of the agreement, 8 a deposit of R1.5 million or let me rather say Village Star 8 yes, I’ve already elaborated. 9 Trading had paid a deposit of R1.5 million, isn’t that so? 9 ADV NEL: Yes. You transferred, as we10 DR GRIEVE: In terms of the actual 10 went through yesterday, R2.5 million to your private11 agreement sale, the purchaser was Village Star Trading. 11 account of that R4.4 million.12 ADV NEL: The money that was used to pay 12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.13 that deposit, the R1.5 million, am I correct that that came 13 ADV NEL: Did you record that as a loan14 directly from the R2.5 million that you had transferred to 14 by Bridging Solutions to yourself?15 your private account from the money, R4.4 odd million 15 DR GRIEVE: I find that difficult to16 received from William Grieve? 16 answer because I would have to have a set of financial17 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 17 statements that was drawn up and if we had done that, yes,18 ADV NEL: And we know that that R4.4 18 it would have been recorded, but I mean we obviously did19 million was intended for Bridging Solutions, isn’t that 19 not have financial statements prepared at that point in20 correct? 20 time, so ultimately, yes, that would have been how it would21 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 21 have been recorded. It would have had to have been22 ADV NEL: So that R1.5 million that you 22 recorded that way, because that’s what happened.23 used to pay the deposit, that was money intended for 23 ADV NEL: But did you have books of24 Bridging Solutions, not so? 24 account?25 DR GRIEVE: Can I elaborate with a bit 25 DR GRIEVE: We had some books of accountTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  3. 3. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 319 Page 321 1 – 1 wife, is that correct? 2 ADV NEL: Did Bridging Solutions have 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 books of account? 3 ADV NEL: Are you still married to Sanet? 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, we had some books of 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 account. We went through a few bookkeepers, so they were a 5 ADV NEL: We spoke extensively about our 6 bit muddled up because we didn’t have any continuity in 6 lives. David drove me around showing me property after 7 bookkeepers, but there were some accounting records, of 7 property owned by him. Now, all of these properties that 8 which, already previously stated, were – everything in the 8 you showed William, have these properties all been recorded 9 office was taken by, I believe, Paul Marias and/or 9 in your sequestration application as properties10 associates of him. 10 surrendered?11 ADV NEL: Right. So, yes, what you’re 11 DR GRIEVE: If we can use the term “the12 saying is it wasn’t recorded, but the intention was to 12 Group,” yes. If you say voluntary sequestration, I get a13 record it as such? 13 bit muddled up, are you talking about me or –14 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 14 ADV NEL: Yes, I’m talking about your own15 ADV NEL: From yourself to Village Star – 15 sequestration. You voluntarily surrendered your estates?16 your private account, the money went to Village Star, was 16 DR GRIEVE: Yes, all those properties17 that recorded as a loan from Bridging Solutions to Village 17 were surrendered or were all set out as assets.18 Star? 18 ADV NEL: He says you also took him to19 DR GRIEVE: I want to shorten the answer 19 the respondent’s offices, where all appeared to be20 and say the same as before. 20 operating and functioning well. Respondent is Bridging21 ADV NEL: Okay, and I assume that you 21 Solutions.22 also did not record that payment of R1.5 million as a loan 22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.23 from yourself to Village Star either? It wasn’t recorded 23 ADV NEL: All of that so far correct?24 in Village Star’s books as a loan from you? 24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.25 DR GRIEVE: No, because the books hadn’t 25 ADV NEL: He continues, “David also Page 320 Page 322 1 been prepared yet, but it would have been. 1 briefed me on the business of the respondent, indicating 2 ADV NEL: Would you agree with me, Dr 2 strong growth pattern and offering me higher return than 3 Grieve, that what we end up with here, having considered 3 those originally contracted for my investment.” Is that 4 all these steps, is that Bridging Solutions paid that 4 correct? 5 deposit – amount of R1.5 million? 5 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember that detail 6 DR GRIEVE: I’ll concede to that, ja. 6 specifically – 7 ADV NEL: I’d like you to turn to the 7 ADV NEL: Did you tell William that 8 file, I think it’s marked volume 1. 8 Bridging Solutions is experiencing strong growth patterns? 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 DR GRIEVE: I said there was a high10 ADV NEL: Page 49 of that bundle and 10 demand for it, so I did lead him under that impression,11 while you’re paging through it, I’m just going to put it 11 yes.12 into context for you. It’s the founding affidavit that was 12 ADV NEL: He continues, “I did not ask13 filed in support of the application by William Grieve for 13 for payment of any return on my investments, neither did14 the liquidation of Bridging Solutions. So this is the 14 David offer payment of any returns to me. I waited until15 affidavit that was deposed to by William Grieve himself. 15 the loans fell due for repayment, believing that my total16 Do you have page 49? 16 investment, inclusive of the returns due to me, would be17 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 17 repatriated with the necessary Reserve Bank approval.” Do18 ADV NEL: If you can look at the bottom 18 you dispute any portion of that statement?19 of that page, paragraph 21? 19 DR GRIEVE: No.20 DR GRIEVE: Mm. 20 ADV NEL: The next paragraph he21 ADV NEL: William states under oath that, 21 continues, “It was during this visit, after revealing my22 “I decided to visit my brother in South Africa to coincide 22 financial position to David, which was very much reliant on23 with is birthday on 28 August 2009. Apart from the day of 23 the remaining amount of £350 000 held in the bank account,24 my arrival, when David was in Cape Town, I spent my entire 24 which I had planned to use as an investment to start a25 visit to the country with David and Sanet. Sanet is your 25 family business with the imminent redundancy of my wife,Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  4. 4. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 323 Page 325 1 that David persuaded me to invest these funds for a very 1 you have a limited right of, you know, Mr Storm or 2 short period of time.” Is that a correct statement? 2 yourself, at the end of your evidence, you do have the 3 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 right to clarify certain issues. 4 ADV NEL: He says, or he continues, “He 4 DR GRIEVE: That’s fine, okay. 5 personally guaranteed the repayment of this amount within a 5 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Let’s proceed. 6 short period of time, as he has done with the two previous 6 ADV NEL: Thank you, page 55, Dr Grieve. 7 advances. He also personally assured me of the safety and 7 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 8 security of my investment.” Is all of that correct? 8 ADV NEL: Paragraph 42, it’s quite a long 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 paragraph, I’m going to read and ask you just to confirm.10 ADV NEL: He continues, “There were 10 This is William’s words, “In the discussions I had with my11 several other exchanges during my visit when David 11 brother, prior to and during my visit in late August 2009,12 personally guaranteed the safety of my investment and that 12 my brother led me to believe that the respondent was in13 he would make good any loss suffered by me.” Is that 13 need of capital for growth.” Do you agree with that14 correct? 14 statement?15 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.16 ADV NEL: And this we know was at the end 16 ADV NEL: “There was no indication that17 of August, around the time of your birthday on the 29th of 17 the respondent was facing financial collapse, or that the18 August. 18 respondent was close to financial ruin.” Is that correct?19 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.20 ADV NEL: At that time, Dr Grieve, you 20 ADV NEL: “The fact that the respondent21 were already aware of the precarious financial position 21 was embarking on a program of growth is also clearly22 that Bridging Solutions was in, not so? 22 evident from the investment proposal which is dated23 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 23 September 2009.” Do you agree with that statement?24 ADV NEL: Can I ask you to turn to page 24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.25 55 of – 25 ADV NEL: “Prior to the catastrophic news Page 324 Page 326 1 DR GRIEVE: May I interrupt there 1 breaking on 1 December 2009, David committed himself to 2 quickly? 2 repay my last advance of £350 000 by the end of February 3 ADV NEL: Yes. 3 2010.” Is that correct? 4 DR GRIEVE: I see that he’s listed a 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 whole lot of entities here, which are not necessarily 5 ADV NEL: “I am appalled at the extent to 6 correct at all. Is that relevant? 6 which things have turned around. Whilst I have no 7 ADV NEL: It’s certainly not relevant for 7 knowledge of the dissipation of assets of the respondent, 8 what I’m going to ask you, but if you believe it’s 8 it must stand to logic that some or the other expense or 9 relevant, you must comment. 9 liability must have caused the depletion of my funds10 DR GRIEVE: The thing referred to as 10 recently advanced to the respondent. Sue and I,” that’s11 Audit Kay cc, or something, I had in my student days and I 11 William’s wife, is that correct?12 sold off many, many years. I think before the year 2000, 12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.13 so that’s very old stuff. S&B Financial Consultants the 13 ADV NEL: “- asked my brother and Sanet14 same, Mercatura, the same. It’s stuff that I had sold off 14 to come clean and explain the root cause of the15 years, years ago. It was just shelf companies that I’d 15 respondent’s financial demise.” Is that correct? Was that16 sold through an auditor to somebody else. 16 request addressed to you?17 COMMISSIONER: I think – sorry, if I can 17 DR GRIEVE: Ja.18 perhaps interject, you know, Cipro is not very up to date 18 ADV NEL: He says, “Nothing has been19 and I think if I understand what William is saying here, is 19 forthcoming from them.” Is that correct?20 that he went to Cipro’s office and he probably put your ID 20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.21 in and this was the information that was given to him. 21 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, why didn’t you22 DR GRIEVE: Apologies for the 22 explain to William what had caused the demise of Bridging23 interruption, I just wanted to – 23 Solutions?24 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine. If you 24 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I’m going to just take25 want to take it further, as I explained to you yesterday, 25 two steps back there and first of all just quickly respondTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  5. 5. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 327 Page 329 1 to the proposal. He was aware that there was pressure on 1 motive. I was always comfortable in the knowledge that my 2 the business, he did not understand the full extremeness of 2 investment was secure and risk-free and that my brother was 3 that pressure absolutely, and that specific proposal, I 3 there as guarantor to cover any loss that I may suffer.” 4 told him I was trying to find a corporate funder to replace 4 Did you lead William to believe that the investment was 5 Presidium and he actually helped work on that proposal, 5 secure and risk-free? 6 with the idea that he might know of a corporate funder that 6 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to answer yes to 7 could potentially be interested and that’s where that 7 that. Risk-free is a strong word, but I would have perhaps 8 proposal came out, okay? So he actually had a little bit 8 used the word like minimal risk or little risk, so in the 9 to do with that proposal as well, in terms of some of the 9 bigger context, yes.10 graphs and inputs and suggestions that he actually made. 10 ADV NEL: Certainly, Dr Grieve, when you11 That’s the first response. I’m not trying to say that he 11 took the last loan of £350 000, you could not have believed12 was aware of – what’s the term he used, the predicament or 12 that the investment would be secure and risk-free, could13 the precarious predicament of the business, no, he was not 13 you?14 fully aware of it, but he did know that there was pressure 14 DR GRIEVE: I honestly believed that it15 and I needed to replace Presidium and he was contemplating 15 was still secure, because I could cover it from Creda16 helping me to try and find such a potential corporate 16 Finance and that’s what I based that on.17 funder. Secondly – I’ve just got to think here now, 17 ADV NEL: Page 56, paragraph 47. And I18 because this was a long paragraph – secondly – 18 quote, William says, “I have clearly been misled by my19 ADV NEL: All I asked was just, why you 19 brother. His fraudulent and deceptive approach resulted in20 did not explain – 20 me advancing my life savings to him. This dishonesty,21 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I had actually 21 recklessness and maladministration on the part of David22 explained to him, I did send him an email and the kind of 22 must be thoroughly investigated. The myriad of other23 responses I got were both a threat on myself and on my life 23 entities associated with David, and quite possibly also24 and on my wife, and they were very horrible threats and we 24 Sanet, needs to be investigated and so does all inter-25 got them from various sources and I still responded and 25 related transactions involving assets of the respondent. I Page 328 Page 330 1 apologising for the situation and I regret ever having done 1 find it unacceptable that the company that provided an 2 it and I actually did send such responses and I explained 2 absolutely risk-free investment opportunity and which was, 3 to him what went wrong and that we had basically messed up 3 at least until November 2009, flourishing and looking for 4 and I did actually offer him an explanation. He wasn’t 4 further investment to meet growth opportunities, now finds 5 happy with the explanation, perhaps, but there was some 5 itself in a bankrupt and distressed financial situation, 6 communication back and forth, and obviously he hasn’t 6 unable to repay investors and creditors.” Did you lead 7 accepted the communication and I regret that, but there was 7 William to believe until November 2009 that Bridging 8 some communication. 8 Solutions was still flourishing and needed to grow, needed 9 ADV NEL: Okay, it continues, “My 9 to find investors for growth opportunities?10 brother’s only response has been that there will be enough 10 [09:54] DR GRIEVE: Flourishing is harsh. I11 to go around for distribution amongst creditors.” Is that 11 would have led him to believe that it was still okay, yes,12 something that you said to him? 12 and I would have, yes. I would just like to ask what13 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall what my exact 13 misfeasance means?14 wording was, but I would have said that there – I don’t 14 COMMISSIONER: Misfeasance.15 think the word “enough” is, I don’t think, necessarily the 15 ADV NEL: Well, it’s a form of being16 word I would have used, it could have been, but I did say 16 dishonest and corrupt.17 there will be some - there is still some debtors out there, 17 DR GRIEVE: Okay.18 if we can collect them, that there would be something for 18 ADV NEL: I would like to ask you to19 the creditors. 19 please turn to page 63. This document, what was it20 ADV NEL: He continues, “In other words, 20 prepared for?21 my investment is not secure and never was.” Do you agree 21 DR GRIEVE: This document according to my22 with that statement? 22 recollection was prepared for Bill and we were going to try23 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 23 and raise a replacement funder with this – Im just trying24 ADV NEL: He says, “I had no reason to 24 to see. We wanted to try and raise a replacement funder25 believe that my brother had any underhanded or fraudulent 25 for Presidium from this document according to me.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  6. 6. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 331 Page 333 1 ADV NEL: But was it only prepared for 1 DR GRIEVE: Ultimately I was hoping to 2 Bill? 2 get funding to replace Presidium, that was my intention. 3 DR GRIEVE: I had much earlier on, I had 3 ADV NEL: But you cant just get funding 4 another one that I would have used initially when I was 4 by preparing a document. Were you going to present it to 5 trying to raise funds years prior, which I probably would 5 somebody, this document? 6 have given to Presidium when we concluded that agreement, 6 DR GRIEVE: I don’t know. Its something 7 and I think round about that time when I was looking – 7 that Bill actually asked for, so I don’t know what he was 8 that’s in the early days, that’s even before 2009, Im 8 going to do with it. 9 talking about 2008 I think. I would have used such a 9 COMMISSIONER: Well, was he going to find10 document to approach a group of angel investors as they 10 a replacement funder for Presidium, is that what you11 would call themselves on a website and see if I could get 11 intimated?12 any interest, which I didn’t get any interest on. Since 12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. Not necessary for the13 then I found this document popping up everywhere and it has 13 full amount, but he was going to see what he could do.14 led to look as if Ive been posting it on certain websites, 14 ADV NEL: This was prepared by it looks15 which has not been the case at all, as well as certain 15 like it in September 2009. Is that correct?16 other stuff that has been posted all over the internet to 16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.17 incriminate me further, and I am not happy about it, but 17 ADV NEL: Is that when William was here18 that’s what Ive seen happen. So ja it looks bad, but I 18 on holiday visiting you?19 did not post any of that there. The only thing I posted 19 DR GRIEVE: I think he had left. I think20 and that was I believe as early as 2008 when things were 20 it was done via Skype and emailing. I think he had already21 going well. I did post something once off and that was an 21 left.22 angel investment network and I had to actually have to pay 22 ADV NEL: Did you present this document23 to have it posted there. It was trivial, it was like R50 23 to anybody other than William?24 or R120 or something that you had to pay just to post 24 DR GRIEVE: I may have, I cant recall.25 something, and I actually never got a response from that, 25 ADV NEL: Well lets turn to page 65 of Page 332 Page 334 1 so that this was something that I would have used elsewhere 1 this document, the heading is Executive Summary, the third 2 yes, ja. 2 paragraph re; “What makes this business model very secure, 3 COMMISSIONER: Forgive me I don’t 3 is that at no time does money get loaned without a 4 understand you. You say you would have used and you should 4 guarantee been held from the bank, linked to an attorney’s 5 have used it, and Im not quite sure. Who prepared this 5 undertaking, or security held against an asset well in 6 document? Lets get back to the question. 6 excess of a 70% loan to un-incumbent equity max of the loan 7 DR GRIEVE: This specific one here was 7 amount.” This is something you recorded in September 2009. 8 prepared 80% by me 20% by William Grieve. 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER: Was he a co-author of this 9 ADV NEL: Yet at this time you were10 document? 10 already aware of debtors not paying Bridging Solutions, not11 DR GRIEVE: Yes. A co-author – he 11 so?12 bounced it back and forth with me quite a few times 12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.13 suggesting I do this and that, and add this and add that 13 ADV NEL: How could you then possibly at14 and helped me add some of those things, yes. 14 that time suggest that this model is very secure? Can you15 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 15 answer that?16 ADV NEL: Thank you. And when you say 16 DR GRIEVE: I can answer that.17 co-author, presumably the information contained in this 17 ADV NEL: Yes.18 document emanates from you not from William. 18 DR GRIEVE: And its not a good answer,19 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I concede to that, yes. 19 but that’s the only answer I can offer is that, in the20 ADV NEL: So when you say he was a co- 20 preceding six or seven years that it had been so, and21 author, was he simply helping you to neaten it up, to tidy 21 obviously in 2009 that was not the case anymore.22 it up? 22 ADV NEL: But certainly prior to you23 DR GRIEVE: Yes, no fair enough. 23 making this statement it was no longer the case.24 ADV NEL: And what was your intention 24 DR GRIEVE: No, it was no longer the25 with this document, what were you going to do with it? 25 case.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  7. 7. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 335 Page 337 1 ADV NEL: If you turn to page 66, the 1 ADV NEL: Yes. 2 last paragraph on that page reads, “This opportunity gives 2 COMMISSIONER: So it’s incorrect? So it 3 the investor the ideal chance to earn a good constant 3 wasn’t in your personal name? 4 secure return on their money without having any sleepless 4 DR GRIEVE: No. 5 nights.” Do you see that? 5 COMMISSIONER: And you know exactly what 6 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 6 the difference is having something in your personal name 7 ADV NEL: Is that an accurate statement? 7 and owning something in an entity. Because weve seen 8 DR GRIEVE: Not at this stage. no. 8 there financial accounting – 9 ADV NEL: Was it an accurate statement in 9 DR GRIEVE: Okay fair enough. Then this10 September 2009? 10 is not correct.11 DR GRIEVE: No. 11 COMMISSIONER: It’s not correct, another12 ADV NEL: No. 12 exaggeration.13 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, I was actually 13 ADV NEL: On that same page it refers to14 referring to September 2009 the date of this document, 14 the Wilderness Protea Hotel, it records that – is it the15 sorry. 15 Grieve Group, Im not certain from this paragraph, whether16 COMMISSIONER: Okay, no that is fine. 16 the Grieve Group is a shareholder or whether you are a17 ADV NEL: Page 67 sets out your 17 shareholder.18 qualifications, Dr Grieve, and it records there that you 18 DR GRIEVE: Which paragraph is that?19 did an advanced management programme. 19 ADV NEL: At the bottom of page 67.20 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.21 ADV NEL: When did you obtain that 21 ADV NEL: It says, “Dr Grieve has a22 qualification? 22 personal rental property portfolio with an overall value in23 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, Im not 100% certain, 23 excess of R 20 million. He is the principle figure behind24 Id actually have to go and have a look at the certificate. 24 the Grieve Group which also has a small construction25 Around about 2000/2001. I don’t want to be quoted on that. 25 business and is also a shareholder and a member of the Page 336 Page 338 1 ADV NEL: Well, that’s good enough for 1 board of trustees of the Wilderness Protea Hotel? I assume 2 me, because some of the subjects you did there were 2 that is the reference to you in your personal capacity? 3 financial accounting – management accounting, business 3 DR GRIEVE: With what the, Chairlady, has 4 management. Not so? 4 just told me, then this will be incorrect. 5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 ADV NEL: Which entity is then a 6 ADV NEL: Yet despite obtaining this post 6 shareholder of the Wilderness Protea Hotel? 7 degree qualification from Manchester Business School, 7 DR GRIEVE: Two entities, Nanina cc, 8 particularly in subjects like financial accounting and 8 theres some number behind it, I cant recall which one, 9 management accounting, you didn’t do any accounting did 9 but Im sure you will be able to assist me there. And then10 you? 10 there were five of these sectional title units in that11 DR GRIEVE: No. 11 Nanina cc, and two in the incorporated company.12 ADV NEL: Last paragraph on that same 12 ADV NEL: Is that DS Grieve Incorporated?13 page. “Dr Grieve has a personal rental property portfolio 13 DR GRIEVE: Correct. And in terms of the14 with an overall value in excess of R20 million. Is that 14 Group if I can use that term, this would have been correct15 correct? 15 in my opinion. But in terms of the definition bestowed on16 DR GRIEVE: Why Im a bit silent now, Im 16 me, no.17 trying to think just how to answer this in a logic way. I 17 COMMISSIONER: Just for the record, Mr18 don’t think we can say that’s totally correct, but a motive 18 Grieve. I havent just bestowed on you that definition.19 why I feel that it is actually perhaps true, and that is 19 You’ve known that definition because I will find it highly20 because not all my properties were necessarily that I was 20 strange that nobody, through your studies through the21 renting out in my private name, but it was in an entity 21 Manchester Business School, that did not bring that22 that belonged to me and I felt that that property was then 22 definition to your attention.23 part of my personal portfolio of properties, and I feel 23 DR GRIEVE: Ja, fair enough. Using the24 that at that stage that the basket of property portfolios I 24 term Group there, I would have tried to encompass that, but25 owned was in a value of that more or less. 25 I accept it.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  8. 8. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 339 Page 341 1 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Lets carry on. 1 made in September 2009? 2 ADV NEL: On page 68 at the bottom, 2 DR GRIEVE: Not in terms of what was 3 theres a heading Accountant, Auditors and Attorneys. It 3 going on inside the business, no. 4 says, “The accounts are audited annually by Mazar’s a well 4 ADV NEL: Right. If you can turn to page 5 known respected international integrated and independent 5 82, that’s an annexure to William Grieve’s affidavit and 6 organisation.” Is that correct? Were Bridging Solutions 6 that document, Annexure D records email correspondence and 7 accounts audited annually by Mazar’s? 7 SMS correspondence between yourself and your wife and 8 DR GRIEVE: It’s a bit of a double barrel 8 William and his wife. In the middle of page 82, it says, 9 question. Yes, they were audited by Mizar’s, they were the 9 theres an email from Bill and Sue to yourself, 11th of10 appointed auditors. Had they been audited, not up to date, 10 September 2009, and the second paragraph starts, “Just for11 no. They had also replaced previously auditors PKF who had 11 avoidance of problems and any misunderstandings Dave, the12 to do an audit, and with them I had a lot of frustration 12 recent transmission - £350 000, must be returned by end of13 trying to get the work done, because they are a big 13 February latest please, if not earlier. This was done to14 accounting firm and they are so publicly driven – a public 14 help you and only for that reason, this means that you need15 company driven, that I kept getting pushed to the back 15 to plan to free this amount up and apply to the South16 burner and they just weren’t getting to it, they didn’t 16 African Reserve Bank for repatriation of the full amount17 have enough people in their office, and I replaced them 17 back to me, the application being done by mid November 200918 with Mizar’s and we I believe have done some audits. I 18 at the latest.” You received this email?19 just cant remember if they had actually done audits on 19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.20 this company as of yet. 20 ADV NEL: And the next paragraph, note,21 COMMISSIONER: But that’s incorrect. 21 very important note, “I also want you please as this is a22 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 22 critical part of my personal fund to plan for recovery back23 COMMISSIONER: That’s the short answer. 23 to me. I cannot survive without this. In the event24 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 72 24 something happens to you or a problem occurs on your visit25 please, Dr Grieve? 25 to China. I know it sounds extreme, but I shudder at what Page 340 Page 342 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 1 happened to Dawid, I hope you understand. I will not be 2 ADV NEL: In approximately the middle of 2 able to complete my relocation without it and the setback 3 the page, the paragraph that starts, “What also makes us an 3 on my will be too enormous to recover or recover from.” 4 attractive investment.” The last sentence of that 4 This is what William tells you in his email in September 5 paragraph reads, “Therefore the investment capital will be 5 already? 6 and is always well protected and secure.” Is that an 6 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 7 accurate statement as at September 2009? 7 ADV NEL: Did you ever reply to 8 DR GRIEVE: No. 8 repatriate that money through the South African Reserve 9 ADV NEL: Same page under the heading 9 Bank?10 “Liability”. It is recorded, “At this time the company has 10 DR GRIEVE: No.11 no liability other than monthly returns to a small group of 11 ADV NEL: On page 83, that’s your12 select investor’s enjoying the low cost benefits of 12 response to his lengthy email. You simply say, “I take13 perpetual, significant, secure returns.” Accurate 13 note of your comments and will react accordingly.” Is that14 statement, Dr Grieve? 14 correct?15 DR GRIEVE: No. 15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.16 ADV NEL: But this is the document that 16 ADV NEL: Top of page 86. This is the17 you held out to William as being correct and which you may 17 last paragraph in an email from you to William on the 25th18 or may not have presented to potential future investors. 18 of November. You say, “Business is fine and running around19 Not so? 19 and chasing some deals that need to be chased a bit.”20 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 20 That’s what you told him, is that correct?21 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 79. 21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.22 The last paragraph starts, “One of the fastest ways the 22 ADV NEL: That was on the 25th of23 business has grown has been by referral and word of mouth, 23 November?24 and the business could grow by R20 million per month with 24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.25 almost no effort.” Is that an accurate statement to have 25 ADV NEL: We know that on the 1st ofTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  9. 9. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 343 Page 345 1 December a mere six days later, you applied to have not 1 I was. 2 only Bridging Solutions but a whole lot of other companies 2 ADV NEL: If you turn to the top of page 3 and close corporations and yourself liquidated or 3 87, perhaps you can explain that postscript that you’ve 4 sequestrated. Not so? 4 added there. You say, “No, I am not on 45%, closer to 35%, 5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 but that is just the overruns that catch one out at some 6 ADV NEL: At the 25th of November you must 6 interest from time to time. Part of the game I guess.” 7 have known that at the very least, Bridging Solutions was 7 What did that mean? 8 in dire straits. Not so? 8 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall exactly. I’m 9 DR GRIEVE: We were in dire straits, but 9 thinking that it meant that that would be the average kind10 we still had the confidence that we would obtain the 10 of return from a deal, any deal.11 funding from Creda, and that is why we waited until the 11 ADV NEL: Okay. So you told him on the -12 last due date from the last letter before we applied for 12 DR GRIEVE: I think I -13 the winding up. 13 ADV NEL: - on the 25th of November that14 ADV NEL: When did you go and approach 14 your returns were closer to 35%.15 your attorney to launch this winding up application? 15 DR GRIEVE: I guess that’s what, I was, I16 DR GRIEVE: I cant recall the exact date 16 might have been implying, yeah.17 when we went. 17 COMMISSIONER: You’re starting to sound18 ADV NEL: We know it was launched, 18 vague again. You were the author of the – it was just a19 signed, served at court on the 1st of December. 19 year, a few months ago.20 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 20 DR GRIEVE: I accept that. I just can’t21 ADV NEL: How many days before that? 21 recollect the postscript. I think sometimes you add things22 DR GRIEVE: That was a couple of days 22 like that very quickly without giving it much thought and I23 before that. 23 can’t really recall what that was meant to say.24 ADV NEL: What is a couple, two, three? 24 COMMISSIONER: Okay.25 DR GRIEVE: You will have to ask him. I 25 ADV NEL: On that same page, just below Page 344 Page 346 1 honestly cant recollect exactly that. I just know that he 1 that, we find an e-mail from Dawid Fourie. Now that’s 2 did it extremely, extremely quickly. It could have been a 2 addressed to William. Is Mr Fourie one of the creditors? 3 day or two even before he actually lodged it. 3 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 4 [10:14] We jumped on that. I saw him the morning. That 4 ADV NEL: Of Bridging Solutions? 5 afternoon he had some counsel that we saw and we were 5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 6 already, in the next day I think they started to launch. I 6 ADV NEL: He writes to William and says, 7 would like to confirm it with him but that’s what I 7 in the second paragraphs, the second paragraph, I 8 recollect. It was two days or one day. I can’t remember 8 apologise, “It appears that DS”, that’s obviously a 9 but it was very quick. 9 reference to yourself -10 ADV NEL: Let me you ask you it in a 10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.11 slightly different way. On the 25th, when you told William 11 ADV NEL: - “and his enterprises are12 Grieve that business is fine, was it fine? 12 being liquidated with immediate effect. Also it appears13 DR GRIEVE: No, it wasn’t fine. 13 that there is a divorce looming and an end to their14 ADV NEL: Same page, 86, near the bottom. 14 marriage. I suspect these two incidents are closely15 You tell William in an e-mail, “Thanks for the extension. 15 related.” We – you’ve told us that you didn’t get divorced16 I will apply to the South African Reserve Bank for 16 from your wife, Sanet. Is that correct?17 repatriation next week.” You told him that, not so? 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.18 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 18 ADV NEL: But it appears that this19 ADV NEL: Did you have any intention of 19 statement that your enterprises are being liquidated with20 doing that? 20 immediate effect. That was certainly the intention on 121 DR GRIEVE: I would have indeed done that 21 December, not so?22 had I received the monies from Creda. 22 DR GRIEVE: What was the intention I23 ADV NEL: Were you expecting to receive 23 wanted -24 the money within the next week? 24 ADV NEL: To liquidate or wind up all of25 DR GRIEVE: Actually at that stage, yes, 25 these legal entities.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  10. 10. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 347 Page 349 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 1 alright, and I still have copies of those but the problem 2 ADV NEL: You didn’t think that maybe it 2 is I can come and give them to you here. It’s not a major 3 would be better coming from you to tell William this? 3 issue but the problem is, with those e-mails, there’s 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, it would have been 4 things that are said in those e-mails that only he as my 5 better. 5 half-brother knows, but they’re not from him. 6 ADV NEL: Did you make any attempt to 6 COMMISSIONER: And your point being? 7 tell him? 7 DR GRIEVE: Well, I was receiving threats 8 DR GRIEVE: Not at that stage, no. 8 on my life, on my family, from various sources of e-mails, 9 ADV NEL: Can I ask you turn to page 89, 9 from various g-mail accounts with some strange names, okay,10 Dr Grieve? This is an e-mail, the heading of it is at the 10 and with all those threats coming through I was speaking to11 bottom of page 88. It was sent to you by William on the 1st 11 my attorneys and they advised me not to speak to any of my12 of December and he says, “David, what the hell is going on? 12 creditors including my brother. So I adhered to that13 If you have lost my lifesavings I will never forgive you. 13 because of the threats and that is, yes, it is strange, but14 Bill.” Do you see that? 14 that is why I did that.15 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 15 ADV NEL: Mm. But the day before this16 ADV NEL: Your response follows and you 16 you say to him don’t worry, I’ve got you covered.17 say, “I have you protected. Relax. I will mail details to 17 DR GRIEVE: I concede to that, ja.18 you in 24 hours. Do not reply to this address and mail. I 18 ADV NEL: His wife responds to you and19 will use a secret mail address. I have only you protected 19 says, “He is not a creditor, he is your brother who loves20 and will explain all in 24 hours. Please give me a bit of 20 you so much and you have ruined him and us as a family.21 time to get back to you.” Did you have William protected 21 Hope you know what you are doing. Sue.” You received that22 at all? 22 response?23 DR GRIEVE: No. 23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.24 ADV NEL: Turn to page 90, please, Dr 24 ADV NEL: Further down she sends you25 Grieve. This is a sort of second e-mail from the top of 25 another text, on the 8th of December saying, “Bill loaned Page 348 Page 350 1 the page. This is from your wife to William, not so? On 1 you everything including Richard’s university money to help 2 the 2nd of December and it records, “Hi, I am really sorry. 2 you. Hope you know what you are doing and are coping. 3 My attorney has instructed me not to talk to any creditors 3 Sue.” Is Richard his son? 4 at all. Please call him on 0123430267 or” and then there’s 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 a cell phone number. Is that something that you wrote or 5 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, there’s a whole lot 6 your wife wrote? 6 of personal e-mails that follow. I don’t want to take you 7 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall who wrote 7 through all of them but perhaps if you can go to page 92 - 8 that, to be honest, but even if my wife wrote that I’m 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 aware of that text, so it could have been from me or her, 9 ADV NEL: - there’s an e-mail sent on the10 from either phone and I concede that I would have been co- 10 2nd of December to you and it records, “David, what are the11 author or author of that irrespective of, from where it was 11 chances of recovering anything from your POV? Can we help12 sent. 12 you in any way?” Your response is, “There will be some to13 ADV NEL: You were the author, you say? 13 go around. Speak to Willem Storm.” Is that correct?14 DR GRIEVE: I believe so, yes. I would 14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.15 have said something to that extent. 15 ADV NEL: Page 93, the second e-mail.16 ADV NEL: Isn’t it a bit strange that 16 This appears to be an attempt by you to explain what17 your brother lends you in the region of R6.5 million, 17 occurred.18 things go wrong and you say to him, you’re just a creditor, 18 DR GRIEVE: Can I interject quickly?19 talk to my attorney? You don’t find that strange? 19 Just to elaborate on that, this was also at the stage where20 DR GRIEVE: That is strange and I can 20 my layman understanding is that we threw the whole lot in21 elaborate a little bit. I treated him as a creditor. He 21 for liquidation and sequestration under one parcel and22 was my brother and, or half-brother, sorry, exactly. And I 22 obviously then whatever surpluses came out of any of the,23 treated him as a creditor only after, because I see that 23 the sale of the assets and properties, could be used to try24 we’ve got all these e-mails and stuff here but there was 24 and help settle creditors and that is the grounds where I25 some very serious threatening e-mails sent to me as well, 25 said there should be some to go around, speak to Willem,Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  11. 11. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 351 Page 353 1 because he had already got that list of all the assets and 1 from a firm of attorneys, Ebersohn and Grobler and I was 2 stuff. 2 unable to get money from them. They’re still lying on the 3 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, if we look at your 3 debtors book. I could they could be recovered. I don’t 4 actual application for liquidation, voluntary surrender, 4 how successfully. There’s a chance albeit small but those 5 sequestration, they all record that your liabilities and 5 are the ones I was referring to. 6 every entity liability exceeded its assets, not so? 6 ADV NEL: Yes. Now you say they were 7 DR GRIEVE: They were prepared by Willem 7 small? 8 and I didn’t look at the detail. At that stage one is in 8 DR GRIEVE: It’s about, sjoe, I can’t 9 emotional distress as well. That could very well be so. I 9 give you exact figures. In terms of what would be10 could not tell you what the figures are in those 10 outstanding that’s probably very rounded off close to R111 applications. 11 million each. Some of them over R1 million. It’s probably12 ADV NEL: Back to page 93, the second e- 12 R4 million, maybe even a little bit more.13 mail. This is from you to William and appears to be an 13 ADV NEL: You see, here you record them14 explanation. You say, “Hi. I’m really sorry. Two large 14 as three large clients and you just said probably small15 investors pulled their funds.” Who are those large 15 amounts. And there’s a distinction, isn’t there, Dr16 investors who pulled their funds? 16 Grieve?17 DR GRIEVE: Presidium and Blue Financial 17 DR GRIEVE: Well, is a million rand18 Services. 18 client, small or large, I don’t know what the definition is19 COMMISSIONER: And who? 19 but I felt that they were fairly large, substantial.20 DR GRIEVE: Blue Financial Services. 20 ADV NEL: It wasn’t my words, it was your21 COMMISSIONER: Blue Financial Services? 21 words.22 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 22 DR GRIEVE: Okay, alright.23 ADV NEL: Did Blue Financial Services 23 ADV NEL: You said a small amount24 actually make an investment? 24 recoverable. It continues to say, “William Storm has25 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 25 instructed me not to talk to creditors. I was going to Page 352 Page 354 1 ADV NEL: And did they withdraw that 1 explain in detail then I received several threats on my 2 investment? 2 life. So please ask William Storm to explain what 3 DR GRIEVE: They asked for it but they 3 happened.” So presumably there’s another explanation over 4 didn’t get it, no. 4 and above what you set out here. Is that so? 5 ADV NEL: Well, they couldn’t have pulled 5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 6 their funds then, they - 6 ADV NEL: What is that explanation? What 7 DR GRIEVE: No. 7 caused Bridging Solution’s demise? 8 ADV NEL: - they were simply just asking 8 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to say that 9 for their money. 9 Bridging Solutions did business for about five or six years10 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 10 without any major hiccoughs or problems, either in the11 ADV NEL: But you couldn’t pay them back. 11 legal entity or in the business it was doing in my private12 DR GRIEVE: No. 12 capacity. In the year of 2009 we started to pick up deal13 ADV NEL: You couldn’t pay Presidium 13 stress and we started losing the odd deal here or there and14 either. 14 it started to accelerate. I made a few mistakes along the15 DR GRIEVE: No. 15 way. Some of those mistakes was trying to match short term16 ADV NEL: So the problems didn’t arise 16 funding from Presidium with a slightly longer term need in17 because investors withdrew their money. Would you agree 17 a book. I rolled some of those loans on after being18 with that? 18 promised an additional five million from Presidium and that19 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 19 didn’t come so I had no reserves left and the big mistake I20 COMMISSIONER: Another lie? 20 made in the beginning of the year was to lend out fairly21 ADV NEL: And it continues and says, “And 21 large amounts to single, I want to use the term groups or22 three large clients folded on me all in the last two 22 on single transactions and those transactions didn’t come23 weeks.” Who were those three large clients? 23 back fast enough, which put me under tremendous, tremendous24 DR GRIEVE: I’m going to say that it was, 24 cash flow strain and that was the start of the stress. But25 the clients I was referring to there was actually clients 25 I still felt, even though the money was out in the field,Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  12. 12. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 355 Page 357 1 as long as it started coming back, you know, it would come 1 Resort Hotel. 2 back with the returns and we would still be fine. We just 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 needed to battle through and obviously then Presidium 3 ADV NEL: Correct? 4 started to get unhappy and they did their audit and they 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 weren’t happy with the findings. They started to put 5 ADV NEL: Now, you record in the second 6 pressure on us and, I mean, I fought the fight as hard as I 6 paragraph that, “You recommended I come up with a definite 7 could trying to buy time, trying to get money in from the 7 plan of action to remedy the shortfall on the book and I 8 debtors and then I started to get more debtors folding on 8 would like to suggest the following remedy. There are more 9 me and for the first time in the seven or eight years I was 9 solutions in the pipeline but what I can table at the10 in a total, almost new business, where attorneys’ 10 moment with some support are the following.” And the first11 undertakings weren’t worth much and previously they were 11 one you record is that you placed your house in the market12 always honoured. So I had no stress. And then suddenly 12 and it may realise a sale in the near future.13 these things were folding on me and, having those fold on 13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.14 me obviously put me under severe pressure and we tried to, 14 ADV NEL: Was that property ever sold?15 to tackle a few of these attorneys as well but not very 15 DR GRIEVE: No.16 successfully. And that just hurt me and it just led from 16 ADV NEL: Do you still reside in that17 one thing to another. At the same time the construction 17 property?18 business picked up strain towards the middle of the year 18 DR GRIEVE: No.19 when we had a few completed units that we wanted to sell 19 ADV NEL: Is that the property at20 and I said that yesterday, suddenly we have to get people 20 Cornwall Hill?21 that were buying to actually put up large deposits. And in 21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.22 that price range, round figures, you’re talking about 100, 22 ADV NEL: You referring to there. What23 R150 000 that people would have to put down as a deposit. 23 has happened to that property.24 So I was ending up carrying debt in that entity, which was 24 DR GRIEVE: We landed up, when we were25 also more than I could manage. And that led to the 25 under pressure, putting a tenant into that property through Page 356 Page 358 1 multitude of mistakes that you’ve elaborated on and with 1 an estate agent and it was rented out. 2 that I obviously concede to having mismanaged it and it 2 ADV NEL: And who owns that property? 3 crashed. 3 Who is the registered owner of it? 4 And we still believe we could have resuscitated 4 DR GRIEVE: Myself, but in terms of, I’m 5 it if we could get some nice, cheap funding large enough to 5 assuming it’s now the liquidator. I don’t know. 6 cover both entities and replace the other funding. And 6 [10:34] ADV NEL: Well I mean, you were 7 that’s what we had hoped with Creda and that didn’t 7 sequestrated weren’t you? 8 transpire. And that’s when we realised this is now being 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 promised to us two or three times and it hasn’t happened, 9 ADV NEL: So who is the trustee? Do you10 that it’s not going to happen and that’s when we applied 10 know the trustee?11 for an urgent application. Does that answer your question? 11 DR GRIEVE: Yes, Alphea Car Trust and12 ADV NEL: Yes, it does. I think the fact 12 that would be Dewald. I mean the deed search will probably13 that, you know, you indicate that, you know the 13 still reflect my name, but it’s in his hands now.14 construction business was struggling. That of course know 14 ADV NEL: And where does the rental go15 has got nothing to do with Bridging Solutions but you used 15 for the monthly rental?16 the funds interchangeably between the various entities, not 16 DR GRIEVE: I had that been paid into my17 so? 17 Standard Bank private account at the time of concluding18 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I conceded to that 18 that, and obviously it’s up to Dewald to manage it further.19 yesterday as well. Yes. 19 ADV NEL: Does he have sole access to20 ADV NEL: I’m going to ask you to turn to 20 your Standard Bank account?21 a lever arch file with the number 3 on it. 21 DR GRIEVE: I don’t have access to my22 DR GRIEVE: I have the file. 22 Standard Bank account.23 ADV NEL: If you can turn to page 539. 23 ADV NEL: Okay.24 This is an e-mail that you sent to Presidium on the 31st of 24 DR GRIEVE: He must have sole access. I25 July 2009 and it relates to the sale of the Wilderness 25 don’t even know if it’s being paid there or if it’s beingTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  13. 13. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 359 Page 361 1 paid into his trust or whatever account of his, I don’t 1 DR GRIEVE: No. 2 know. 2 ADV NEL: Can you turn to page 565 3 ADV NEL: Okay. 3 please. 4 DR GRIEVE: You will have to ask him that 4 DR GRIEVE: Can I just ask quickly. The 5 question. 5 reference to these plots having ever been sold, are we 6 ADV NEL: Second paragraph. “I have a 6 talking about everything before my sequestration? 7 buyer for my hotel and the equity should be released is 7 ADV NEL: Yes. 8 about 200 000 by seven shares, 1.4 million.” Now we know 8 DR GRIEVE: I don’t know whats happened 9 that you are not the owner of the hotel, you told us 9 since then.10 earlier. 10 ADV NEL: Sure. If you look at page 565,11 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 11 that’s an email from you to Presidium. Do you agree with12 ADV NEL: Two shareholders, Nanini and DS 12 that?13 Grieve Incorporated. And this R1.4 million, is that value 13 DR GRIEVE: Ja.14 of the shares? 14 ADV NEL: You say, “I trust you are15 DR GRIEVE: Im going to just correct you 15 keeping well, here is the copy of my plot’s valuation and16 there slightly. The term share I think is not a good term, 16 hope to give you some more info in the near future about my17 it’s a rental pool, the hotel had been divided into 17 replacement funding. I was hoping to see my funder18 sectional title units. I owned five in Nanini – sectional 18 tomorrow, but he is ill and will only see me next week some19 title units, which sort of loosely around the boardroom 19 time.” Who’s that funder?20 represented five shares. They were going to formalise that 20 DR GRIEVE: At that stage I was seeing21 at some stage, but I don’t know if that ever transpired, 21 both Advocate Derrick de Villiers and Henk on a regular22 and then the two that were incorporated were equivalent to 22 basis with trying to find out whats happening, trying to23 two shares, but it’s sectional title units, so they 23 support them, trying to get these things to happen. I24 literally divided it up into little rooms and each person 24 cannot possibly tell you which one of the two, it would25 bought a room. So I had seven rooms in the hotel. 25 have been one of the two. Page 360 Page 362 1 ADV NEL: And the value of each room is 1 ADV NEL: Yes. If you go to page 587. 2 R200 000? 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 DR GRIEVE: No. The value of each room 3 ADV NEL: Email from you to Presidium. 4 is difficult to put a value unless you sell it, and at that 4 First paragraph you say, “I believe that Paul has agreed to 5 stage there was an offer on the table from some group which 5 buy my portion of my debt as you referred to. My brother 6 I cant recall, but if you speak to the board of trustees 6 Bill is also on his way back to New Zealand where he will 7 you can find out theres been some various offers, but none 7 arrange the interim payment of the R1 million. I believe 8 of them have gone through. But there was a concrete one 8 it should be before the 10th and keep as all happy.” At 9 that was backed with deadlines and some big paperwork and 9 that time you were aware that William was going to advance10 there were a string of attorneys working on it. And the 10 R4,4 million to you, not so?11 offer there if I remember correctly was around about 400 11 DR GRIEVE: Yes.12 per room, or 450, somewhere around, it was just over 400 12 ADV NEL: So why do you tell Presidium13 but in that ballpark. And the 200 per unit here would then 13 only about R1 million?14 be the difference between the bonds that I had on those 14 DR GRIEVE: The reason why we are only15 units and the actual purchase price from the buyer. And 15 giving them R1 million is that obviously we were going to16 that’s where that 200 – 16 put a deposit on the house which I say Bill knew about17 ADV NEL: So what you’ve calculated there 17 alright. And then the second thing there was that, the18 is after repaying the bonds there would be 1.4 million? 18 remainder would be used to keep me afloat until Creda’s19 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 19 money came in.20 ADV NEL: Were those sales ever realised? 20 ADV NEL: Yes. Lets accept for the21 DR GRIEVE: No. 21 moment that William knew that you were going to put money22 ADV NEL: The third one. You’ve got two 22 down as a deposit on property, that knowledge of his was23 plots with ABSA, the value of about R6 million with a bond 23 based on your representation to him that Bridging Solutions24 of about R3.8 million outstanding, equity 2.2 million. 24 was a viable thriving entity, not so?25 Were those plots ever sold? 25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  14. 14. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 363 Page 365 1 ADV NEL: Yes. Can you please turn to 1 amount of monthly rental paid for the Cornwall Hill 2 page 595. It’s another email from you to Presidium. First 2 property by the tenant? 3 paragraph, “Here is the R1 million and I believe Paul has 3 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I can vaguely remember 4 reduced my book from his purchase of debt by another 13 4 it being R20 000 to R25 000 a month. Why Im giving you a 5 million 700 thousand.” That reference to the R1 million, 5 range like that, I cant remember if it was 25 and the 6 that’s the R1 million you received from William – 1 million 6 commission from the agent was taken off and I was getting 7 of the 4,4 million you received? 7 the remainder or not, because I think I only received one 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 8 or two months of those before the sequestration took place. 9 ADV NEL: And you used that R1 million to 9 It was somewhere in the range of 20 or 25. I just know the10 pay Presidium. Is that right? 10 contract if I remember correctly was for 25 when she took11 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 11 commission.12 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, what we’ve 12 ADV NEL: And this is a property valued13 established is that, payments were made to Presidium from 13 by you at R8.5 million? Correct?14 monies received from William which were intended for 14 DR GRIEVE: Yes.15 Bridging Solutions. Do you accept that? 15 ADV NEL: And this tenant, any relation16 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 16 or friend of yours?17 ADV NEL: And the total amount appears to 17 DR GRIEVE: Heaven forbid, no.18 be 2 900 000 of Williams funds that were used to pay 18 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, as Madam19 Presidium directly. Do you accept that? 19 Commissioner explained to you, you will get an opportunity.20 DR GRIEVE: I accept that. 20 Id like to give you an opportunity to tell this inquiry21 ADV NEL: There was a payment to an 21 what happened to this vast amount of funds.22 entity called Gateway, approximately R48 000. Do you 22 DR GRIEVE: The vast amount of funds –23 recall that? 23 the short story there I already gave you a version of that24 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 24 just now, and that is exactly what happened. We did our25 ADV NEL: Who is Gateway, what entity is 25 best to manage these businesses and the debts obviously Page 364 Page 366 1 that? 1 started to grow and we had a double problem in the sense 2 DR GRIEVE: Gateway, the short answer was 2 that the bridging business in the country saw a very tough 3 my landlord. 3 time, because the property market had imploded to a degree, 4 ADV NEL: In respect of which property? 4 which meant we had a lot of deals going South and at the 5 Is it a commercial property? 5 same time I had in the construction business the stock that 6 DR GRIEVE: 5 Laag Nook, Zwartkop, that’s 6 we needed to move that we couldn’t move for quite a period 7 where my offices were. 7 of time, and we had to pay those expenses. We also had to 8 ADV NEL: And was that a monthly rental 8 pay the people that were building those houses as well. So 9 or? 9 our overheads just grew and grew, and suddenly when things10 DR GRIEVE: Yes, it was a monthly rental. 10 started to go tight, when you start running behind those11 ADV NEL: For one month only? 11 things escalate and they escalate fast and they just12 DR GRIEVE: Im not sure if that was for 12 escalated much faster than what we ever could have13 one month if I was in arrears, and maybe it was a two month 13 expected.14 payment, that I cant recall, we’d have to go and have a 14 So basically what happened is, in the group the15 look, I cant remember what the figures were. But if you 15 economy hit us, we mismanaged some of it and we had a large16 just have a look at previous months Im sure we will be 16 number of deals go south on us, and between that and the17 able to pick up other payments to Gateway, and then you’ll 17 continued payments that we had to pay just hurt us. It’s a18 be able to see - 18 question of you lose a deal in the bridging space, and you19 ADV NEL: Do you not know what the 19 lose capital and the interest you earn, but youre still20 monthly rental was? 20 actually liable to pay the – like Presidium or one of the21 DR GRIEVE: I cant recall. 21 other credit investors a return, so you’ve got to keep up22 ADV NEL: Okay. Madam Commissioner, may 22 to those payments, and in the previous years we didn’t have23 I just have one second? 23 any bad deals, and suddenly in one year we just ended up24 COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course. 24 with a truckload.25 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, can you recall the 25 ADV NEL: Okay. Madam Commissioner, ifTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email:
  15. 15. 2nd November 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry Page 367 Page 369 1 we can – Im sure if this is – 1 you had to meet your commitments to Presidium, was your 2 COMMISSIONER: Yes, we can take the tea 2 negotiations, ongoing as they were, with Creda and other 3 adjournment. 3 individual investors like Mr Veldkamp and Mr de Lange, the 4 ADV NEL: Thank you very much. 4 Luxemburg fellow. 5 COMMISSIONER: We stand down, thank you. 5 DR GRIEVE: No, no, he was actually one 6 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES] 6 of the debtors. We referred to him as Mr De Lange, but it 7 [10:57] COMMISSIONER: I understand that Mr Laher 7 was – I think it was a legal entity and I obviously had 8 is going to take us through the next session. I just want 8 time to go and think about it last night, the entity, if I 9 to confirm, Dr Grieve, that you are still bound by your 9 can remember, I don’t have records, so it’s from memory,10 oath of this morning. 10 was Colozay Holdings, I think and that you might have seen11 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 11 in the stuff you’ve studied and he was one of my debtors,12 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. And that 12 he owed me money.13 you’re still comfortable talking to us without your legal 13 MR LAHER: But the hope that you held14 representative here? 14 out, and you were relying on, was Creda and Mr Veldkamp.15 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, that is indeed correct.16 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. 16 MR LAHER: And you kind of made reference17 Let’s proceed. 17 to the fact that during this period, you still held out18 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 18 hope in the business and belief in the business, that this19 Dr Grieve, I’ve sat through the last day and quarter when 19 Bridging business could still grow in all of this period20 you were examined by my learned friend, Advocate Nel, I 20 with all of these difficulties?21 just want to try and assess the evidence as I’ve heard it 21 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I did. Would you like22 and understood it. You’ve told the commissioner that the 22 me to elaborate on that?23 insolvent company started running into financial difficulty 23 MR LAHER: Yes, sure.24 when it experienced a liquidity crisis which was caused by 24 DR GRIEVE: It’s just a question of, yes,25 a series of defaulting deals in the first quarter of 2009, 25 there were difficulties on some of the deals and I could Page 368 Page 370 1 is that correct? 1 obviously look to myself and say, well, maybe – not maybe, 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 2 in that point of time, obviously now I can say definitely, 3 MR LAHER: And when those defaults 3 but at that stage, maybe we’ve made one or two bad 4 started racing, as you referred to earlier this morning – 4 decisions, we need to scrutinise our deals a bit more, and 5 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, racing? 5 at that stage I had, daily, people – attorney firms 6 MR LAHER: Racing onto you. 6 requesting funding, you know, for bridging transactions. 7 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 7 So that is why I believed the business would be able to 8 MR LAHER: You were unable to service the 8 grow, not because of the – what’s the word he used, 9 repayment of interest or, for that matter, make any capital 9 precarious situation at the end, but simply the demand was10 repayments to your largest creditor, being Presidium, 10 still massive and literally, and I’ll say even today, if11 correct? 11 one could run it properly, if you had a lot of capital,12 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes. 12 there is still a huge demand for that kind of finance, and13 MR LAHER: And in the first quarter of 13 they were knocking on my door and I just couldn’t provide.14 2009, you held out a number of reasons for the defaulting 14 MR LAHER: The fact of the matter is that15 deal. 15 during this period, the defaulting deals remained as16 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 16 defaulting deals, nothing changed.17 MR LAHER: One of them being that it was 17 DR GRIEVE: No.18 a slow start to 2009, correct? 18 MR LAHER: And your hope was Creda coming19 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 19 to the party?20 MR LAHER: The other being a public 20 DR GRIEVE: Creda and that some of those21 service strike which engulfed the deeds office and various 21 deals that were defaulting might – the communication from22 other reasons. 22 those debtors was not default, but delay, and so we were23 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 23 still assuming that they would come at some stage.24 MR LAHER: And during this period, apart 24 MR LAHER: And Creda participated and you25 from these deals coming through, the only other hope that 25 negotiated with them and Presidium, at the same time, were,Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: