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Dishonest Dr DS Grieve Special Inquiry 8 february 2011 (2)

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ABSOLUTE PROOF OF DISHONESTY LIES THEFT AND FRAUD

ABSOLUTE PROOF OF DISHONESTY LIES THEFT AND FRAUD

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  • 1. RealTime Transcriptions TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INSOLVENCY INQUIRY IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS (PTY) LIMITED (IN LIQUIDATION) MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10 BEFORE MS R BEKKER HELD ON 08 FEBRUARY 2011 PAGES 729 TO 782 HELD AT BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON © REALTIME TRANSCRIPTIONS64 10th Avenue, Highlands North, JohannesburgP O Box 721, Highlands North, 2037Tel: 011-440-3647 Fax: 011-440-9119 Cell: 083 273-5335E-mail: realtime@pixie.co.zaWeb Address: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/pak06278
  • 2. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 729 Page 731 1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 8 JANUARY 2011] 1 ADV NEL: Is that the 22nd or the 27th, 2 [09:37] PRESIDING OFFICER: Today is the 8th of 2 sorry? 3 February 2011. We are proceeding with our inquiry in the 3 MR BOTHA: The 27th of February 2009. 4 matter of Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited in 4 ADV NEL: Thank you. So you have those 5 liquidation. The parties present, to my right is the 5 documents here? 6 counsel from the Johannesburg Bar, Mr G J Nel. Mr Nel is 6 MR BOTHA: Yes. 7 instructed by Mr Haroon Laher of Bowman Gilfillan and Ms 7 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much. 8 Bianca Masterton, and Ms Nabeelah Kathrada is assisting Mr 8 For the record, Mr Botha has handed us a bundle of 9 Laher from Bowman Gilfillan. We have Mr Norman Kagan who 9 documents, thank you.10 is doing our transcription for us and then our first 10 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Botha, I think11 witness this morning is Mr Botha. Good morning, Mr Botha. 11 there were three other accounts you were asked about,12 I believe you are from RMB Bank, is that correct? 12 United Hotels (Pty) Limited?13 MR BOTHA: That is correct, yes. 13 MR BOTHA: United Hotels (Pty) Limited,14 PRESIDING OFFICER: You’ve brought us 14 there is no facility in their own capacity. They actually15 bank statements. I am just going to place you under oath 15 signed surety for Percy Masinga (Pty) Limited. We’ve got16 so that you can just hand in the bank statements for us. 16 two accounts there and I’ve got the statements for both.17 MR BOTHA: Sure. 17 ADV NEL: Thank you, we appreciate that.18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Are you comfortable 18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, if you19 in English? 19 could just hand that to me? Thank you.20 MR BOTHA: Yes. 20 ADV NEL: Thank you. So that’s the two21 PRESIDING OFFICER: Your full names, 21 accounts for Percy Masinga (Pty) Limited?22 please? 22 MR BOTHA: That’s correct.23 MR BOTHA: Jan Hendrik Botha. 23 ADV NEL: Thank you and then there was24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Any objection in 24 Midrand United Hotel?25 taking the oath? 25 MR BOTHA: There is no facility or Page 730 Page 732 1 MR BOTHA: No. 1 exposure for Midrand United Hotel with us. 2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please raise your 2 ADV NEL: And then Midrand United Car 3 right hand. Please swear that the evidence that you are 3 Hire (Pty) Limited? 4 about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and 4 MR BOTHA: Midrand United Car Hire, we 5 nothing but the truth, so help me God? 5 don’t have any facility or exposure. 6 JAN HENDRIK BOTHA: d.s.s. 6 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Botha, just for 7 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much. 7 the sake of clarity and so that there is no confusion, when 8 Please proceed, Mr Nel? 8 you say facility, in our layman’s terms can we accept that 9 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr 9 that would equate to being an account?10 Botha, I understand that you have been requested to bring 10 MR BOTHA: That’s correct, yes.11 certain bank statements relating to the bank account of Mr 11 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Madam12 Percy Masinga to this inquiry. 12 Commissioner, I have no further questions for Mr Botha. I13 MR BOTHA: That is correct. 13 would just like to thank him for bringing us the documents.14 ADV NEL: Do you have those bank 14 We do appreciate that.15 statements with you? 15 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr Botha.16 MR BOTHA: Yes, I have been requested to 16 Thank you for your attendance and your assistance, I am17 provide you with the statements regarding P M Masinga. 17 going to excuse you.18 ADV NEL: Yes. 18 MR BOTHA: Thank you.19 MR BOTHA: He’s only got a credit card 19 [NO FURTHER QUESTIONS - WITNESS EXCUSED]20 account with us in his personal capacity. 20 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES]21 ADV NEL: Can I just ask you, Mr Botha, 21 [10:17] PRESIDING OFFICER: Alright, we are back22 while you are dealing with that credit card, when was that 22 on record. We have Dr Grieve with us. Dr Grieve, just to23 credit card account opened? 23 confirm, you have no objection in taking the oath?24 MR BOTHA: Okay, he accepted the facility 24 DR GRIEVE: No objection.25 on 27 February 2009. 25 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please raise yourTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 3. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 733 Page 735 1 right hand. Do you swear that the evidence that you are 1 being discussed in these hearings that has found its way 2 about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and 2 onto the internet in various forms, shapes and sizes. Some 3 nothing but the truth, say so help me God? 3 of it is in part true, some of it is half true and some of 4 DR GRIEVE: d.s.s. 4 it is absolute rubbish that has been posted. That’s always 5 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much. 5 posted under some sort of nom deplume bogus name, but it is 6 Dr Grieve, you know that you are entitled to legal 6 all posted there and it is stuff that sort of only being 7 representation. Are you comfortable speaking to us without 7 discussed, some of it in these four walls. Some of it 8 legal representation? 8 might be misquoted and then it gets warped out of 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes, at this stage I am. 9 proportion, but there is elements of truth that show it10 PRESIDING OFFICER: You are. At any 10 comes from these four walls. There have been some sort of11 stage when you become uncomfortable you’ll bring it to my 11 threats in previous e-mails received, also once again from12 attention? 12 strange people that we’ve never heard of, all at hotmail or13 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 13 gmail addresses which you can open in about 15 seconds.14 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, thank you very 14 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes.15 much. Mr Nel sorry, before we go, I don’t want to 15 DR GRIEVE: Some of these have come to my16 interrupt you unnecessarily but off the record Dr Grieve 16 wife on her e-mail address. My wife has received SMSs of17 and I discussed something. Mr Storm, your attorney who is 17 threats of us going to jail and threats of us, various18 not here today, apparently, or phoned me this morning and 18 things like that. I have put them onto text which I have19 said that you have received threats regarding the evidence 19 e-mailed to my attorney which I can forward. I may not20 that was given at our previous inquiry. Can you perhaps 20 have checked them all, but there is enough there to show21 just explain it? 21 you that this is happening.22 DR GRIEVE: I think threats is perhaps 22 Then other things that have also happened is,23 not 100% accurate. 23 where I am trying to find work, obviously with all this24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay? 24 stuff posted all over the internet, if you try and find a25 DR GRIEVE: It is various forms of 25 job somewhere and they just Google your name, they sort of Page 734 Page 736 1 harassment and malicious responses. Is this off the record 1 look at this and they don’t even phone you back or they 2 or are we on – 2 don’t interview you or they let you know, because there all 3 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, we are on record, 3 sorts of rubbish on the internet and they are not 4 I need this to be on record. 4 interested. So it is making life very, very difficult. 5 DR GRIEVE: Alright, then basically the 5 Further than that, that means the only way I can 6 various things that happened, it is not just necessarily 6 really just make a survival at the moment is by taking on 7 from the previous one, it is from the first one until now, 7 odd jobs, which I do, do and wherever I seem to find work 8 various incidents have taken place. Now the problem is it 8 for a while, it is a couple of weeks and then suddenly with 9 would be very tough for myself or my legal representative 9 the hospital managers where I go and work, receive some10 or counsel, whatever you call it, to do anything about it 10 wonderful letters explaining to them in some depth of how11 because of the way it has been done, you know. It is 11 bad I am, how evil I am and that they should bar me from12 impossible to finger it – 12 working in that specific hospital and they receive these13 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay – 13 threats with all sorts of links to all sorts of websites14 DR GRIEVE: In a legal process to say it 14 that have been generated and created, also by nom deplumes,15 is so and so. 15 untraceable sources but all badmouthing me.16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. 16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, ja –17 DR GRIEVE: Or Mr X or Y of Z, although 17 DR GRIEVE: So it makes my life very,18 we do know who it is, we just can’t necessarily put that to 18 very difficult. Some of these websites link me to porn, to19 the table as such and I can explain why we know that. 19 lesbianism, to gayness, I don’t know if there is such a20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes? 20 term. So it makes it very difficult. Then in previous21 DR GRIEVE: But I am going to first just 21 correspondence on record we’ve even referred to social22 tell you what’s happened – 22 networks. Now on some of those social networks there have23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay – 23 been some infiltrations and they have been sending certain24 DR GRIEVE: So that we can just take it 24 messages to contacts of mine or so called acquaintances on25 from one end. There is a lot of stuff that is obviously 25 Facebook where they also refer them to all these websitesTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 4. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 737 Page 739 1 and say they shouldn’t be friends with me and all sorts of 1 DR GRIEVE: The type of pages that it is, 2 stuff like that. 2 I don’t think that it is going to printout exactly on a 3 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. 3 printer either. So it will be easier to actually forward 4 DR GRIEVE: And even some of the people 4 electronic, what is the word I am looking for here, sources 5 that we’ve mentioned here before, the likes of Derrick de 5 or – 6 Villiers received threats and stuff on Facebook, via 6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes, no – 7 messaging and the like, intimidating him, harassing him and 7 DR GRIEVE: Via an e-mail for you to go 8 threatening him with all sorts of stuff. So – 8 and actually review and have a look at. 9 PRESIDING OFFICER: Sorry, just on that, 9 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay.10 have you made, have you been able to speak with Mr Derrick 10 DR GRIEVE: So I can actually forward the11 de Villiers? 11 various addresses of these websites and where some of these12 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I have. 12 things that I feel that leaked out from these hearings and13 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh and have you been 13 proceedings have been posted.14 able to get us an address so that we can send – 14 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay.15 DR GRIEVE: I haven’t got an address, but 15 DR GRIEVE: So if I may do that, I think16 I did give you guys a telephone number. I sent the e-mail 16 that will be the easiest.17 through – 17 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, well perhaps if18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh – 18 you could e-mail it to myself and to Ms Masterton and then19 DR GRIEVE: A couple of times. 19 we can have a look at it.20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh, is that a recent 20 DR GRIEVE: Okay.21 – 21 PRESIDING OFFICER: And see if I can22 DR GRIEVE: Ja, not so recent, I sent 22 identify the person, if evidence has been leaked, then I23 that back with the, ja – 23 can perhaps try and identify it. I’ll give you my card.24 PRESIDING OFFICER: Ja, that we get hold 24 DR GRIEVE: Okay, thank you.25 of him – 25 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, I think that Page 738 Page 740 1 DR GRIEVE: On request I managed to get 1 deals with that. Mr Nel, please proceed. 2 hold of it within four or five days and I did send it 2 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Dr 3 through. 3 Grieve? 4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes? 5 DR GRIEVE: Okay, so – 5 ADV NEL: I would like you to have a look 6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Dr Grieve, I don’t 6 at this file that is the closest to you, that’s the one. 7 want to interrupt you. I think I get the gist and you know 7 If you open it you’ll see that there are divisions. There 8 that can’t be pleasant for you. The problem, I just need 8 is one for Annette Odendaal and I would like you to go to 9 to know, my role here is to ensure that these proceedings 9 that when you are ready.10 are done, are held in confidence. So if you can bring me 10 DR GRIEVE: Okay.11 something concrete that you can show me that has been 11 ADV NEL: About a quarter way through12 leaked from these proceedings, I can then try and identify 12 that bundle in front of you, if you just page you should13 the person who has leaked this information so that I can 13 see there – that’s good, stop there and then page on a14 take steps against that person. 14 little bit until you get to the document application for15 DR GRIEVE: Okay. 15 finance.16 PRESIDING OFFICER: From what you tell 16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.17 me, as I say it sounds very unpleasant, that is not enough 17 ADV NEL: Okay, now if I remember18 for me to make, you know to – 18 correctly the general modus operandi of Bridging Solutions19 DR GRIEVE: I accept that. 19 was a person requiring finance or Bridging assistance would20 PRESIDING OFFICER: To take someone to 20 approach Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited and the first21 task. 21 thing that would be done would be the completion of the22 DR GRIEVE: Okay, if I may, most of the 22 application for finance form. Is that correct?23 stuff is in electronic format, even, like I say, my printer 23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.24 at the moment is broken but – 24 ADV NEL: So the document you have in25 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay – 25 front of you now is the application for finance and thatTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 5. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 741 Page 743 1 document appears to have been completed by Annette 1 went and obtained a bond from a financial institution and 2 Odendaal. Would you agree with that? 2 they also, as you put it, if they are waiting for a bond to 3 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 3 be registered and paid out, it could also take anything 4 ADV NEL: And it appears from that that 4 from one month to, who knows how long and I would also 5 what it is, is a purchase of bond proceeds. 5 bridge those proceeds and I think this is one where we were 6 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 6 waiting for the bond, not necessary for a seller and a 7 ADV NEL: What exactly does that mean? 7 buyer transaction but just a bond. That is if I remember 8 DR GRIEVE: That means that the attorney 8 correctly, if I can just look at the title on the actual 9 that approached me and I don’t have that in front of me 9 agreement to jog my memory, this is a while ago. These are10 now, so please forgive me if I misquote it, but this I 10 bond proceeds, ja.11 believe is Ebersohn and Grobler. They would have 11 ADV NEL: Okay, so when you talk about a12 approached me as a client that they would have finance on 12 purchase of bond proceeds, that would normally be somebody13 their table and would have requested me to buy a portion of 13 who is the purchaser of a property who is awaiting the14 their finance that they are obtaining for the client. Does 14 payment of their bond from a financial institution.15 that make sense? Does that answer your question? 15 DR GRIEVE: The way you’ve put it, you16 ADV NEL: We are starting to get to where 16 are not a 100% correct. It would not necessarily be a17 I would like to ask what I am trying to get at – 17 purchaser of a property. The person could already own the18 DR GRIEVE: Okay – 18 property and not even paid it off, but now he needs a loan19 ADV NEL: Because the purchase of bond 19 again, so he goes and raises a bond.20 proceeds, normally my understanding of how one would 20 ADV NEL: I understand, I see.21 perhaps get Bridging finance is, if for example you sell a 21 DR GRIEVE: Ja, so you were right in the22 property and there is going to be free residue, that 22 second half, just the first part not.23 property may be transferred anywhere between one and six 23 ADV NEL: Okay, thank you. Now that24 months. 24 particular finance application, we can see from that the25 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 25 identify of the mortgagee, if I can call it then the Page 742 Page 744 1 ADV NEL: Certain people may - the 1 borrower, Annette Rose Odendaal and Ms Odendaal wanted or 2 seller, the seller may require money quicker than that. 2 required R450 000. Is that correct? 3 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 DR GRIEVE: That is correct, yes. 4 ADV NEL: They then approach a Bridging 4 ADV NEL: And then on that same page we 5 Solutions - a Bridging finance company and ask for Bridging 5 can see that the conveyancer is Botha/TP, whatever 6 finance on the basis that once the property is transferred, 6 reference the conveyancers may use. 7 the free residue would be transferred or whatever amount is 7 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 8 borrowed would be transferred to the Bridging finance 8 ADV NEL: Okay, if you turn to the next 9 company. 9 page, you’ll see there is a payment authority form. My10 DR GRIEVE: Ja, that’s the one leg. 10 understanding is that that is also required once an11 ADV NEL: And is this what this refers 11 agreement is signed so that there is clear instructions to12 to, the purchase of bond proceeds? 12 Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions where the money must be13 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I haven’t had the 13 paid into.14 privilege of going through this all, I don’t think so 14 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct.15 offhand and if I am wrong please correct me here, but this 15 ADV NEL: From this document we see that16 is what it should say and my memory, this is three years 16 the amount of R450 000 was to be paid into the trust17 ago – 17 account of Ebersohn and Grobler Attorneys.18 ADV NEL: I will take you to the actual 18 DR GRIEVE: That is also correct, yes.19 agreement in a moment – 19 ADV NEL: And this document is also20 DR GRIEVE: But I think I remember it – 20 signed by Annette Odendaal.21 ADV NEL: - about that particular phrase. 21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.22 DR GRIEVE: This specific one would have 22 ADV NEL: Dr Grieve, did you ever have23 been a property that is already owned by the person here. 23 personal dealings with Ms Odendaal?24 ADV NEL: Yes? 24 DR GRIEVE: Not face to face, but I have25 DR GRIEVE: And that they had actually 25 spoken to her over the telephone from time to time.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 6. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 745 Page 747 1 ADV NEL: Were these documents submitted 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 2 to Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited by the 2 ADV NEL: Now Dr Grieve, in this 3 attorneys on behalf of Ms Odendaal? 3 particular instance there were sureties as well. Is that 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 4 normal procedure? 5 ADV NEL: If you can turn on one more 5 DR GRIEVE: No, that wouldn’t be normal 6 page, we see the client information form. Am I correct, 6 procedure, but the attorneys said that they would be 7 that just sets out the details of Ms Odendaal, it sets out 7 settling me either out of the bond or out of - can we just 8 what her gross income is, her occupation and her employer. 8 refer to it as the alternate sources, whichever came 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 through first. So the impression I was left under was that10 ADV NEL: The gross income there is R8 10 my agreement was for the bond, when that came through I11 500 a month. 11 would be settled and that would be the definite exit for12 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 12 them, but they were hoping to actually get me out earlier,13 ADV NEL: Would that be of any concern to 13 simply because our form of, if I can refer to it as14 Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty) Limited or is your 14 finance, is expensive. So obviously if they could settle15 sole criteria the fact that a bond has been granted by a 15 us sooner through, I don’t know what the relationship was16 financial institution? 16 with that other Cornelius person, but if that Cornelius17 DR GRIEVE: My sole criteria in this 17 person was there sooner to settle, they would just exit18 business was that the bond had been granted by a financial 18 earlier.19 institution. 19 ADV NEL: Alright, but from what I20 ADV NEL: And if one pages back a little 20 understand from what you told us earlier, your real21 bit you’ll get to the actual agreement. 21 criteria here was the approval by a financial institution22 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 22 of a bond.23 ADV NEL: That is also headed purchase of 23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.24 bond proceeds agreement. 24 ADV NEL: Now did you ever see such a25 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 25 document? Page 746 Page 748 1 ADV NEL: Madam Commissioner sorry, it is 1 DR GRIEVE: The attorneys, Ebersohn and 2 just before the pages that we were just looking at. 2 Grobler provided me with an undertaking which I haven’t 3 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. 3 seen yet, which stated that such finance approval was, I am 4 ADV NEL: I apologise. 4 just trying to think of the terms they used now, was a 5 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, no, thank you. 5 definite go and that Esmarie, I think is the lady’s name 6 ADV NEL: From that we can see the 6 that was working with Ebersohn and Grobler, who was the 7 identity of, it is referred to as the mortgagee but we can 7 bond originator working on it and she was in the offices of 8 also in layman’s terms refer to it as the borrower, for all 8 Ebersohn and Grobler and she also advised me that this had 9 intents and purposes. 9 been approved and that they would send the stuff through to10 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 10 me, but a final document from the bank, no, I have not11 ADV NEL: Would you agree? 11 received up till today.12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 12 ADV NEL: Would you not have regarded13 ADV NEL: Okay, this is then the 13 that type of document as crucial? That is your only14 agreement that was concluded between Dr D S Grieve Bridging 14 security –15 Solutions (Pty) Limited and Ms Odendaal. 15 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I had a bit more faith16 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 16 than I should have had in the attorney’s undertaking as17 ADV NEL: Can you show me on this 17 well and yes, I should have.18 agreement where it actually reflects the amount to be 18 ADV NEL: Okay, I haven’t seen an19 advanced or does it only appear from – 19 attorney’s undertaking anywhere in this bundle, Dr Grieve,20 DR GRIEVE: It will only appear – 20 but you say one did exist?21 ADV NEL: The payment authority document? 21 DR GRIEVE: One did exist, ja.22 DR GRIEVE: No, it will also appear in 22 ADV NEL: So what I can understand from23 that Annexure A, the first document you referred to. 23 what you are telling me is that you received an24 ADV NEL: So the finance application 24 undertaking. Was that a written undertaking from the25 would then be Annexure A to the actual agreement? 25 attorneys?Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 7. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 749 Page 751 1 DR GRIEVE: This is a long time ago. 1 COMMISSIONER: Yes, 22, no – 2 Yes, there should have been because I would not have paid 2 ADV NEL: No problem, no problem. After 3 this out without at least an undertaking from the 3 that, you’ll see that there’s a document after the – sorry, 4 attorneys. So I am going to make an assumption that there 4 after the suretyship, is a document with the heading Jen 5 was a written undertaking. I don’t know why it is not on 5 Harner Risk Management Services, after that, yes. 6 your file here. Can I query something in the middle of 6 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 7 this, is that okay? 7 ADV NEL: 25, 26. 8 ADV NEL: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER: That’s right, 25. 9 DR GRIEVE: I did give a purple file 9 ADV NEL: Now, did you have any dealings10 about Ebersohn and Grobler through to you guys as well. 10 with Jen Harner Risk Management Services?11 Can I ask you if there wasn’t perhaps a copy of that 11 DR GRIEVE: No, not at all.12 undertaking in that file? 12 ADV NEL: This particular document, was13 ADV NEL: We’ll have to look at it again. 13 it – do you know where it emanates from?14 DR GRIEVE: Everything I had on file, a 14 DR GRIEVE: Actually to be honest, I15 duplicate would have been in that thing and if I don’t, 15 haven’t got a clue. I can’t say that I’ve never seen it,16 then I don’t know where it is. Okay no, then I do not have 16 but it might have been added, but I would have obviously,17 a copy of that. 17 looking at a bond, so this wasn’t an important document to18 ADV NEL: My instructions, Dr Grieve, is 18 me at that particular point in time. It was just added.19 that there is no such undertaking in the purple file. 19 ADV NEL: The next page, page 26 is a20 DR GRIEVE: Okay. 20 client information form.21 ADV NEL: Ja, that’s – at this stage we 21 DR GRIEVE: Ja.22 don’t have a copy of one. 22 ADV NEL: That was also completed by Mr23 DR GRIEVE: Okay. 23 Bornman.24 ADV NEL: And what you are doing is, you 24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.25 are making an assumption based on a recollection. 25 ADV NEL: Was this completed at your Page 750 Page 752 1 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 1 request? Or did the attorney simply do it? 2 ADV NEL: If I can put it that way. 2 DR GRIEVE: I think this was an addition 3 DR GRIEVE: I accept that. 3 by the attorneys. 4 ADV NEL: Okay, but the suretyship, was 4 ADV NEL: The next page is headed 5 that a request by Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions or was 5 Annexure C, that is a suretyship by Mr Shane Craig Donald. 6 that a recommendation by the attorneys? 6 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 7 DR GRIEVE: Sjoe, I can’t recall. I 7 ADV NEL: Did you have any personal 8 actually want to go as far as to say, I think it was 8 dealings with Mr Donald? 9 offered to me. That’s a bit vague but that’s what I 9 DR GRIEVE: Not at the time of this10 recall. 10 contract, no.11 [10:37] ADV NEL: One of the sureties is a 11 ADV NEL: Have you subsequently had12 gentleman by the name of Cornelius Bornman – 12 personal dealings with Mr Donald.13 DR GRIEVE: Ja, ja. 13 DR GRIEVE: Subsequently is a long time14 ADV NEL: - did you have any personal 14 but, ja.15 dealings with him? 15 ADV NEL: Well, then perhaps, Dr Grieve,16 DR GRIEVE: Not at all. 16 you can tell us when you had dealings –17 ADV NEL: If you can just page on, from 17 DR GRIEVE: Obviously, prior to our18 where we are, you’ll eventually get to the payment 18 liquidation, I was chasing this money up quite19 authority form, client information form, and then the first 19 aggressively. I think this is also one of the files that20 suretyship by Mr Bornman. 20 was on Tim du Toit’s table if I remember correctly as well,21 COMMISSIONER: Page 22, I think these 21 and we had various promises of payments due and22 pages have been paginated. 22 forthcoming, and all that stuff, and it just never23 DR GRIEVE: I’ve got it. 23 realised, so ja, at one stage, I was hounding him quite a24 ADV NEL: Sorry, Madam Commissioner, page 24 bit. Because every time I approach Annette Odendaal, she25 22? 25 would not answer, and I would get a phone call back fromTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 8. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 753 Page 755 1 him. So it seemed to be the spokesperson for the two, so I 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 2 always, almost ended up dealing just with him. 2 ADV NEL: And if you turn to the second 3 ADV NEL: Okay, and who made, who, which 3 page of that letter, the first paragraph – 4 person made promises to make payment? 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes? 5 DR GRIEVE: He did. 5 ADV NEL: - it is recorded there that it 6 ADV NEL: After that suretyship document, 6 is the instruction of Tim Du Toit attorneys that Ms 7 there is a document marked Annexure E – 7 Odendaal is indebted to Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions in 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 8 the amount of R699 050. 9 ADV NEL: - by Mr Donald, it sets out his 9 DR GRIEVE: Ja.10 passport number and it says that it certifies that on 10 ADV NEL: And that was obviously as at11 Monday, 20 September, he will pay Mr Bornman half a million 11 the date of that letter, which was 8 July 2009. Would that12 rand. Was this something that you were involved with or 12 be the original R450 000?13 knew about? 13 DR GRIEVE: Plus fees.14 DR GRIEVE: No. I was not involved with 14 ADV NEL: Plus – yes, fees, interest,15 this, this was not relevant to my transaction. If it was 15 whatever you want to call it.16 in there, it was in there. 16 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, ja.17 ADV NEL: Yes, if you turn on another two 17 ADV NEL: Costs.18 pages, you should get to a page where there’s a credit 18 DR GRIEVE: Yes.19 card, copy of a credit card, rather. 19 ADV NEL: Was the amount of R450 00020 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 20 advanced to Ms Odendaal?21 ADV NEL: And then just below that, 21 DR GRIEVE: That question I am going to22 appears to be the passport of Mr Donald. 22 answer as follows, it was advanced to Ebersohn & Grobler’s23 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 23 trust account.24 ADV NEL: Were all these documents 24 ADV NEL: Yes. I apologise, yes, that25 provided to you? 25 was the instructions you were given? Page 754 Page 756 1 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember this 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes. What they’ve done, I do 2 specific page, and I can’t remember the two odd pages, 2 not know what they’ve done on this one, but I have evidence 3 either, 3 that they did not necessarily act ethically on the other 4 ADV NEL: Yes. 4 deals on their table. 5 DR GRIEVE: I am not saying that they 5 ADV NEL: But again, that would simply be 6 were not provided to me, but they wouldn’t have been 6 an assumption as to what they did in this instance. 7 relevant to me. So they could have been in my original 7 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 8 bundle. They probably were. I just didn’t put any 8 ADV NEL: But in accordance with the 9 importance on them, so now I can’t recall them. 9 instructions, Dr D S Grieve Bridging Solutions (Pty)10 ADV NEL: Yes. Do you know the 10 Limited paid an amount of R450 000 to Ebersohn & Grobler11 relationship between Mr Donald and Ms Odendaal? 11 Attorneys’ trust account based on this particular agreement12 DR GRIEVE: I have no official idea of 12 –13 what that is, just an assumption. 13 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.14 COMMISSIONER: Yes, your assumption? 14 ADV NEL: - with Ms Odendaal.15 DR GRIEVE: That they are probably 15 DR GRIEVE: Yes, yes.16 partners. I could be totally wrong, but that’s just my 16 ADV NEL: And this amount of 699 00017 sort of, what I would understand. 17 would obviously have increased with costs/interest,18 COMMISSIONER: Like brother and sister? 18 whatever you want to call it at a rate of R1.60 per R1 00019 DR GRIEVE: No, rather not, they could 19 per day as from 8 July 2009 until now.20 even be but no, my understanding was that they were perhaps 20 DR GRIEVE: I am reading here 31st of July21 partners, but I mean, that’s an assumption, I could be 21 but yes.22 wrong. 22 ADV NEL: Yes, well, I assume then that23 COMMISSIONER: No – 23 what happened is, they’ve calculated the costs in advance –24 ADV NEL: I understand. The next page is 24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.25 a letter from Tim Du Toit attorneys – 25 ADV NEL: - as from, as at 31 July.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 9. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 757 Page 759 1 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 1 MR DONALD: Okay. 2 ADV NEL: So the interest or costs would 2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please bear in mind 3 then be from 31 July 2009. 3 this is a fact finding mission, you either know the answer 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 4 or you don’t. 5 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Dr 5 MR DONALD: Okay. 6 Grieve. 6 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Please 7 DR GRIEVE: Am I excused? 7 proceed, Mr Nel. 8 COMMISSIONER: Okay, can I just stand 8 EXAMINATION BY ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr 9 down? If you will just stand down for us, thank you very 9 Donald, there is a file in front of you. I would like you10 much. We will get back to you. Thank you, Dr Grieve. 10 just for ease to turn to page 13. You should see the page11 DR GRIEVE: Can I leave this open over – 11 number is at the top right hand side.12 COMMISSIONER: Yes. 12 MR DONALD: There we go, the one that’s13 DR GRIEVE: I assume somebody is going to 13 written, not the 6 but the one that is written?14 sit here now. 14 ADV NEL: Yes, it should be in15 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 15 handwriting.16 [10:51] PRESIDING OFFICER: This is Mr Gerry Nel. 16 MR DONALD: Okay.17 ADV NEL: Hello. 17 ADV NEL: Yes, that’s it. Mr Donald, are18 MR DONALD: Hi Mr Nel, how are you? 18 you aware of this, do you have personal knowledge of an19 ADV NEL: Good and you? 19 agreement that was concluded between Dr D S Grieve Bridging20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, you met Mr 20 Solutions and Ms Annette Odendaal?21 Laher? 21 MR DONALD: Yes, I do.22 MR DONALD: Yes. 22 ADV NEL: Can I ask you your relationship23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay and you know Ms 23 with Ms Odendaal?24 Masterton and to your left is Mr Kagan, he is doing our 24 MR DONALD: She is a friend, personal25 transcription. 25 friend, yes. Page 758 Page 760 1 MR DONALD: Good. 1 ADV NEL: A friend. 2 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, can I ask you 2 MR DONALD: She is my friend, yes. 3 just to, is your cell phone switched off? 3 ADV NEL: And are you assisting her with 4 MR DONALD: No. 4 this indebtedness? 5 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, Mr Donald, 5 MR DONALD: Yes, I am. 6 please may I have your full names? 6 ADV NEL: Okay, you also concluded a 7 MR DONALD: Shane Craig Donald. 7 personal suretyship. 8 PRESIDING OFFICER: Do you have any 8 MR DONALD: Yes, I did. 9 objection in taking the oath? 9 ADV NEL: In favour of Dr D S Grieve10 MR DONALD: No objections. 10 Bridging Solutions in terms of which you bound yourself to11 PRESIDING OFFICER: Please raise your 11 –12 right hand. Please swear that the evidence that you are 12 MR DONALD: Yes, I did –13 about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and 13 ADV NEL: Any amounts owing.14 nothing but the truth, so help me God? 14 MR DONALD: Yes, I did.15 SHANE CRAIG DONALD: d.s.s. 15 ADV NEL: On behalf of Ms Odendaal. Can16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you. Mr 16 I try and curtail the proceedings and ask you whether you,17 Donald, you would have noted from your subpoena that you 17 Mr Donald, accept liability to make payment of the amounts18 are entitled to legal representation. 18 due –19 MR DONALD: Mm. 19 MR DONALD: Yes, I will –20 PRESIDING OFFICER: Are you comfortable 20 ADV NEL: To Dr D S Grieve Bridging21 speaking to us without legal representation? 21 Solutions, you do?22 MR DONALD: At this point, yes. 22 MR DONALD: Yes, I will. I am going to23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, well if at any 23 make this very short and simple. What had happened, I met24 stage you become uncomfortable, please bring it to my 24 this woman and her family story touched my heart, okay. I25 attention, I’ll try and assist you as far as I can. 25 might get a bit choked when I start talking about itTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 10. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 761 Page 763 1 because it is very upsetting for me. I came here to South 1 there to see what they can do, how they can disassemble the 2 Africa to bury my uncle, actually who is more like my 2 bone, because she also has a bone disease. The bones 3 brother, we grew up together and my uncle’s daughter is 18 3 disintegrate, the coccyx is completely disintegrated. 4 and her best friend, I met their family through them, okay. 4 Okay, so it is not as simple as just saying you 5 ADV NEL: Alright. 5 know – so that’s the situation that we are in and I am 6 MR DONALD: The one night I went down to 6 trying to get this family back on their feet. We’ve got 7 visit the family and the windows in the house were broken, 7 them a safe home. I’ve got new cupboards, I’ve got them 8 I would say what happened? They said, oh no, we were 8 dishes, I’ve got them plates, I’ve got them beds. You know 9 robbed and I walked into the house. That’s the first time 9 her two boys were sleeping on the floor, they didn’t even10 I went there, I was outside and about a month later I went 10 have a blanket. So now they’ve got blankets, they’ve got11 into the house. There wasn’t a piece of furniture. This 11 beds, I’ve got the house back in order, I’ve got it nice12 woman was sleeping on the floor. There were no cupboards. 12 and tidy for them and now I want to take care of this13 She sold the cupboards in the house to pay for food for her 13 situation. About a month ago, three weeks ago I sent off14 kids. She was married, it was her second marriage. Her 14 notices to my lawyer in Canada to please liquidate one of15 first marriage ended up very young, very early. About six 15 my properties so that I can take care of this situation.16 or seven years went by, she was alone and she married this 16 That he said will take probably between three and four17 guy who was a teacher and this guy physically abused her. 17 months okay, but the documents for sale have already been18 He broke her back three times. 18 sent. I’ve already signed them, I’ve already given power19 The last time she followed him to Saudi, I mean 19 of attorney. So that’s all been executed. I’ve got the20 she was in love with the guy, but she followed him to 20 power of attorney back at the place where I am staying. I21 Saudi. He threatened her in Saudi that he was going to 21 can show you that I have given full power of attorney,22 kill her. She came back. Three of her friends were 22 okay.23 waiting at the house for her and then saying listen, you 23 ADV NEL: Yes.24 either go back to him or we are going to deal with you. So 24 MR DONALD: We are just waiting for them25 I talked to those guys and said listen, it is very simple, 25 to send me the documents for sale, so that I can get the Page 762 Page 764 1 you touch her and I will get people to deal with you, okay, 1 sale agreement done and that’s what we are doing. 2 as simply as that. So I said look, we’ve got to help her. 2 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, I would like to ask 3 So I met Mr Bornman through some other people and 3 you a couple of more questions, but before we get there, 4 he said listen, I’ve got an opportunity, a business 4 just for the sake of clarity, can we accept then that you 5 opportunity that will work. He put the business 5 will honour your suretyship agreement and you will make 6 opportunity together. The whole business opportunity fell 6 full payment of the amount outstanding to Dr D S Grieve 7 apart. Now during that time period I have been putting 7 Bridging Solutions – 8 windows in the house. I paid off her bond, not paid it 8 MR DONALD: Yes, I will – 9 off, but I got the bond that she had back up to square one, 9 ADV NEL: (Pty) Limited?10 okay. The money were paid out, I supposed that was about 10 MR DONALD: Yes, I will.11 80 000, 90 000, to get her bond caught up because she was 11 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Donald, I would12 going to get evicted from the house. We’ve had that 12 like to just firstly say to you that we do have great13 sorted, trying to keep her stable physically. I mean she 13 sympathy for Ms Odendaal, but I would like to just ask you,14 can literally not walk from here to the front door. If she 14 how did this actually come about that Ms Odendaal who15 is walking from here to the front door then she collapses 15 clearly had no money or means, applies for Bridging16 with pain. 16 finance? You know this document says that she wants R45017 So we went. I talked to her surgeon and they 17 000.18 said listen, this is the situation, it is about a half a 18 MR DONALD: Mr Bornman had put in place a19 million to three quarters of a million rand for the 19 business opportunity, okay and with that business20 surgery, because the screw has actually broken. That is up 20 opportunity he arranged through a law firm, I don’t even21 against the nerve in her spine. So to fix that is not just 21 have a copy of the law agreement at all.22 an average specialist. They have actually required 22 ADV NEL: Okay.23 information from my hometown in Edmonton, at the University 23 MR DONALD: We were never given one and24 Hospital, because they have the largest orthopaedic 24 never seen one. We signed it there and I signed as a25 specialists for back surgery there and they talked to them 25 surety.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 11. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 765 Page 767 1 ADV NEL: Yes. 1 MR DONALD: Okay and that was on that, we 2 MR DONALD: I mean I stood behind her, I 2 did provide that through a lawyer. 3 still will stand behind her. We signed it. The money was 3 ADV NEL: Okay, but did you notify Bowman 4 transferred to her and they used her property as 4 Gilfillan that she wasn’t going to be here today, or was it 5 collateral. Now the property was worth, I think at the 5 her attorney that was notified? 6 time it was worth about 1.1, 1.2 million, okay, but if you 6 MR DONALD: Her attorney, the attorney 7 actually look at the house it was probably worth about a 7 that I have hired. 8 100 000, in my mind, because there was nothing left. There 8 ADV NEL: Yes, okay. 9 was no water tank, there was no geyser, nothing. 9 MR DONALD: Okay.10 ADV NEL: Okay, so if I understand 10 ADV NEL: Because the attorney didn’t11 correctly, a financial institution agreed to provide Ms 11 notify us.12 Odendaal with a bond amount. 12 PRESIDING OFFICER: Mm-mm and can you13 MR DONALD: Yes. 13 just confirm the name of that attorney, that you’ve14 ADV NEL: Based on that Dr D S Grieve 14 instructed because we seem to have a bit of confusion –15 Bridging Solutions advanced R450 000 through the particular 15 MR DONALD: He said to me that I needed16 attorneys – 16 to show up here today.17 MR DONALD: Yes – 17 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay.18 ADV NEL: Who I understand a firm called 18 ADV NEL: Yes.19 Ebersohn & Grobler. 19 PRESIDING OFFICER: No, I am asking –20 MR DONALD: Yes. 20 MR DONALD: It is on the phone –21 ADV NEL: I don’t know if that rings a 21 PRESIDING OFFICER: That is fine, we will22 bell to you? 22 get it later.23 MR DONALD: Yes, it does. 23 MR DONALD: Gary –24 ADV NEL: And the monies were paid into 24 MS MASTERTON: Is it Rorich & Wolmarans?25 their trust account. 25 MR DONALD: Yes. Page 766 Page 768 1 MR DONALD: Ja. 1 PRESIDING OFFICER: Someone from their 2 ADV NEL: Was that money, that R450 000 2 firm? 3 then paid to Ms Odendaal? 3 MR DONALD: Yes. 4 MR DONALD: Yes, it was. 4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. 5 ADV NEL: So she definitely received the 5 MR DONALD: Gary Bowman, who I understand 6 money – 6 since then has left the firm – 7 MR DONALD: The money was received into 7 PRESIDING OFFICER: Brummer? 8 her account, yes. 8 MR DONALD: Brummer, Gary Brummer. 9 ADV NEL: Now Ms Odendaal was also asked 9 PRESIDING OFFICER: Yes.10 to come here today. I think the last time she was ill. 10 MR DONALD: Has left the firm and he is11 MR DONALD: She still is, she is 11 now under Pretoria High Court or whatever appointed.12 bedridden. I mean literally she is in bed. You can go and 12 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay.13 have a look. I just got off the phone with her two minutes 13 MR DONALD: And his assistant has taken14 ago, she tried to go to the toilet and she collapsed and we 14 over but yes, he was provided with a medical certificate,15 have, the neighbour’s maid is at the house watching her 15 which I think he faxed, I know Gary faxed it through to you16 while I am here. 16 the last time, stating that she was –17 ADV NEL: Okay, I think just to, she 17 PRESIDING OFFICER: Incapacitated?18 should really have just told us that she wasn’t – 18 MR DONALD: Yes.19 MR DONALD: I did, I phoned the lawyer to 19 PRESIDING OFFICER: Well, I never saw20 say listen, she is not going to be here today. 20 anything but anyway, we will take that up with Mr Brummer21 ADV NEL: Okay. 21 or his assistant.22 MR DONALD: We gave you a medical – there 22 MR DONALD: Yes.23 was a medical certificate provided the last time which had 23 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you.24 an indefinite date disclosed on it. 24 ADV NEL: Thank you. Mr Donald, we25 ADV NEL: Okay. 25 appreciate the fact that you are going to sell the propertyTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 12. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 769 Page 771 1 in, is it in Edmonton? 1 forwarded to Bowman Gilfillan or to this inquiry. 2 MR DONALD: It is in Canada, yes. It is 2 MR DONALD: Okay. 3 not Edmonton, it is in Canada. 3 ADV NEL: Perhaps if you do speak to him 4 ADV NEL: Okay, in Canada. Do you have 4 if you can just ask him to make sure that that is forwarded 5 any idea what sort of residue you would, pre residue you 5 – 6 would have from the sale of that property? 6 MR DONALD: I will do so. 7 MR DONALD: The last appraisal that was 7 ADV NEL: You know as I say nobody knew 8 done on the property was a year ago and the property was 8 that Ms Odendaal wasn’t arriving today. 9 evaluated at $1.9 million. 9 MR DONALD: I will do so.10 ADV NEL: Canadian dollars? 10 ADV NEL: Okay. Mr Donald, Mr Bornman,11 MR DONALD: Canadian dollars, yes. 11 he also signed a deed of suretyship, C J, Cornelius Jansen12 ADV NEL: You see this transaction, 12 Bornman. Do you know his whereabouts? Is he going to13 because it is of a short, normally of a particularly short 13 assist you?14 term nature – 14 MR DONALD: The last I heard that he was15 MR DONALD: Mm? 15 in Singapore. He is to be coming back but I don’t know16 ADV NEL: The – I am going to call it 16 when. Actually I haven’t spoken to CJ for a while, so I17 interest for want of a better word, the Bridging finance 17 don’t know his –18 companies will call it discounts, costs, whatever they 18 PRESIDING OFFICER: And what is he doing19 like, it is interest. 19 in Singapore, do you know?20 MR DONALD: Mm? 20 MR DONALD: I am not sure.21 ADV NEL: That you and I understand it. 21 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh.22 MR DONALD: Mm? 22 MR DONALD: I have no idea.23 ADV NEL: That interest runs at R1,60 per 23 ADV NEL: Okay and this entity, Jen24 R1 000 per day. So that’s 450 times R1,60 each and every 24 Harner Risk Management Services –25 day interest that is accumulating on this amount. When the 25 MR DONALD: I’ve never heard – Page 770 Page 772 1 money was advanced it was R450 000. At the end of July 1 ADV NEL: Does that still exist? 2 2009 it had already arisen to R700 000, R699 050. 2 MR DONALD: I’ve never heard of them. 3 Obviously it is in your interest to resolve it sooner 3 ADV NEL: Okay, if you turn to page 25 of 4 rather than later. 4 the bundle in front of you? 5 MR DONALD: Ja. 5 MR DONALD: Mm? 6 ADV NEL: Because that interest carries 6 ADV NEL: That is a promissory note. 7 on running until the law says it can’t run anymore, 7 MR DONALD: On page 26, here? 8 whatever that may be. So I am just suggesting that Mr 8 ADV NEL: I am sorry, I apologise. 9 Laher, you will have to liaise with him, Ms Masterton and 9 MR DONALD: Okay, no problem.10 the sooner you do that, obviously the better – 10 ADV NEL: That is a promissory note but11 MR DONALD: Yes – 11 you will see it is on the letterhead of Jen Harner Risk12 ADV NEL: More in your interest to do 12 Management Services, but that appears to be some sort of13 that. 13 entity that is owned or which C J Bornman is a member.14 MR DONALD: Okay. 14 MR DONALD: Okay.15 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, just if you do take 15 ADV NEL: I am going to read, I am going16 it up with Mr Brummer, what we have – what we received on 16 to translate this for you, unless your Afrikaans is up to17 the 9th of December last year shortly before Ms Odendaal was 17 scratch.18 initially required to attend, was a letter stating that Ms 18 MR DONALD: Jy kan Afrikaans praat.19 Odendaal sustained a back injury on the 8th of December, she 19 PRESIDING OFFICER: Oh.20 is bedridden and highly medicated and it is then said that 20 ADV NEL: Well, then you can read.21 her medical practitioner will provide a medical certificate 21 MR DONALD: I can’t read it but I can22 which will be forwarded to Bowman Gilfillan – 22 understand it when you speak it.23 MR DONALD: That was forwarded to them or 23 ADV NEL: So what I am going to, I am24 it should have been forwarded. 24 going to try and translate it for you roughly.25 ADV NEL: Okay, it has never been 25 MR DONALD: Okay.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 13. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 773 Page 775 1 ADV NEL: What it says is, “I, C J 1 ADV NEL: So summons has been issued 2 Bornman, undertake to, within 30 days pay R600 000 towards 2 against you. My understanding from the documentation is 3 a loan and that excludes interest and that is a loan, I am 3 that there is an application for default judgment pending 4 not sure if it is to or from Ms Odendaal of 57 Boet Erasmus 4 against you. 5 The Reed, Centurion, Erf 1157. 5 MR DONALD: Okay. 6 MR DONALD: Mm. 6 ADV NEL: I would suggest that you liaise 7 ADV NEL: What I glean from this is, 7 with Mr Laher when you can, so that if possible that isn’t 8 monies were advanced to C J Bornman – 8 pursued. I am not telling you it won’t be or it can’t be, 9 MR DONALD: Yes – 9 I am just making a suggestion to you. I will –10 ADV NEL: And he undertook to repay R600 10 MR DONALD: I said to Mr Laher this11 000. 11 morning before we came in here, I spoke to my lawyer and if12 MR DONALD: Yes. 12 you pull my phone records you’ll see, two weeks ago I told13 ADV NEL: Okay. 13 him what we needed done, he said he’ll get back to me14 MR DONALD: I didn’t know about this 14 within three weeks, it is about a week and a half to two15 agreement. 15 weeks left, that I should get feedback from him. Once I16 ADV NEL: Okay. 16 have that feedback I am prepared to sit down with Mr Laher,17 MR DONALD: Because some of the stuff 17 sign an agreement and say on these, within this date18 that they talked about was between CJ and Annette. I 18 approximately, because we are selling a property, okay, I19 didn’t know about this document. 19 will cover the situation and I have no problem with doing20 ADV NEL: Okay, Mr Donald, I have no 20 that, but I am not going to sign and say, I am not going to21 further questions for you. I am going to just ask you for 21 commit to this and within three months and three months22 the sake of avoiding us instituting legal action against 22 comes down, then I go him and I say look, this is what’s23 you or pursuing legal action, let me rephrase that because 23 happening, I want to be upfront, I want to be open.24 it is my understanding that legal action has already been 24 ADV NEL: No, I appreciate that. All I25 instituted against you based on this agreement and your 25 am suggesting is that you liaise with Mr Laher because he Page 774 Page 776 1 suretyship. 1 is also taking instructions from the liquidator and 2 MR DONALD: Mm? 2 creditors, that are putting everybody under pressure to 3 ADV NEL: You did not enter an appearance 3 collect money. 4 to defend. In other words you didn’t defend the – 4 MR DONALD: Mm. 5 MR DONALD: The original documents were 5 ADV NEL: So I am just saying that, you 6 with, we did issue it with Grieve Bridging Solutions. 6 know I just suggest you would liaise with him. 7 That’s why we hired, why I hired that lawyer in Pretoria – 7 MR DONALD: Ja. 8 ADV NEL: Yes – 8 ADV NEL: Because it is also not just 9 MR DONALD: It was to defend this. 9 solely my decision or his decision.10 ADV NEL: Okay. 10 MR DONALD: Mm.11 MR DONALD: Which he did, as far as I 11 ADV NEL: There are clients and12 understand, file. 12 liquidators who instruct us and tell us –13 ADV NEL: He has only defended on behalf 13 MR DONALD: Fully understandable.14 of Ms Odendaal. 14 ADV NEL: Thank you. Thank you, Mr15 MR DONALD: Ja. 15 Donald, I have no further questions.16 ADV NEL: Not on behalf of you? 16 MR DONALD: If we run into any problem17 MR DONALD: Okay. 17 the one thing that I did have a question about and this was18 [11:11] ADV NEL: Now you’ve also been sued on 18 a question from my lawyer, interest rates here in South19 the basis of your suretyship agreement. 19 Africa, these interest rates fall unto what is called usury20 MR DONALD: Okay. 20 rates, both in the EU, both in North America and where do21 ADV NEL: So regardless of whether the 21 these interest rates fall as far as they are concerned22 court ever gives a judgment against Ms Odendaal, it can 22 here.23 independently give a judgment against you based solely on 23 ADV NEL: You’ll have to take that up24 your suretyship. 24 with Mr Brummer.25 MR DONALD: Okay. 25 MR DONALD: Okay.Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 14. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 777 Page 779 1 ADV NEL: South African Law also has 1 MR DONALD: So I am going to step in for 2 interest rates that would be classified as usurious. 2 the surety to make sure that this gets taken care of. 3 MR DONALD: Okay. 3 ADV NEL: Mr Donald, if we had Mr Bornman 4 ADV NEL: There are different cut offs. 4 here we would be seeking the money from him as well and in 5 It depends on the nature of the loan. I am just telling 5 fact there is also an application for default judgment 6 you for your own interest but I am saying to you, you must 6 against him. 7 get your own legal advice on it. 7 MR DONALD: Okay. 8 MR DONALD: Okay. 8 ADV NEL: So it is not that anybody is 9 ADV NEL: But I did mention to you 9 being ignored here.10 earlier that this type of loan is classified as a short 10 MR DONALD: No, no, I –11 term loan. 11 ADV NEL: Or you particularly not being12 MR DONALD: Mm. 12 targeted –13 ADV NEL: So the interest rates on a 13 MR DONALD: No, even if CJ, I mean I have14 short term loan would be higher than the interest rates on 14 no intentions to push anything against CJ. I will assume15 a long term loan. 15 responsibility and I will state that for the record.16 MR DONALD: Ja. 16 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you.17 ADV NEL: So all of these are factors 17 MR DONALD: And I will make sure that18 that have to be taken into account. 18 this gets taken care of. In the meantime putting on the19 MR DONALD: Okay. 19 table, the interest rates we need to discuss.20 ADV NEL: There are various laws in South 20 ADV NEL: Those will all be resolved and21 Africa that are strict, that protect lenders, borrowers and 21 Mr Laher will discuss all of that with you and explain it22 consumers. So it is certainly not that, you know we are 22 to you.23 allowed to charge any interest in South Africa as compared 23 MR DONALD: Okay.24 to the Americas or the EU. There are restrictions. 24 ADV NEL: And as I said you are welcome25 MR DONALD: Okay. 25 of course to take independently advice for that. Page 778 Page 780 1 ADV NEL: You’ll have to take that up, 1 MR DONALD: Okay. 2 but whatever happens the court would not grant an interest 2 ADV NEL: Thank you very much. 3 rate that it is not entitled to grant against you. 3 MR DONALD: Thank you very much, guys. 4 MR DONALD: Okay. 4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you, Mr Donald. 5 ADV NEL: And Mr Laher will consider all 5 I am going to excuse you, thank you. 6 of that. He’ll take that into account, but you know for 6 MR DONALD: Okay. 7 your own interest you should speak to Mr Brummer or 7 [NO FURTHER QUESTIONS - WITNESS EXCUSED] 8 whoever, whichever attorney you are seeing about the 8 [11:21] PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much, 9 interest rates – 9 we are back on record. Dr Grieve, we do not have anything10 MR DONALD: Well, what I’ll probably end 10 further for today. We do not want to postpone this inquiry11 up doing is properly get, once my property is sold I’ll get 11 to a specific day because we think we have finalised12 my attorney to come here to sort this out, okay. I don’t 12 everything. But what I am going to ask you is if I can13 think, I mean I am open and fair and I hope Mr Laher and 13 have your undertaking on record that should in future we14 everybody else is open and fair as well. 14 give you reasonable notice, i.e. two weeks, if you could15 ADV NEL: Yes. 15 make yourself available on a telephone call with reasonable16 MR DONALD: Okay. 16 notice. Are you prepared to give us that undertaking?17 ADV NEL: There is a National Credit Act 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.18 here which regulates all of this. So – 18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay, thank you. If19 MR DONALD: Okay. 19 there is a huge problem then we will work around it but we20 ADV NEL: It will be transparent. 20 just don’t want to specify a date and then we don’t get21 MR DONALD: Okay, thank you very much. 21 around to that date.22 The only concern is because of I am not fully aware of the 22 DR GRIEVE: That’s fine, I will volunteer23 situation between CJ and what all transpired, all I know is 23 that. That is not a problem. A telephone call is fine and24 what he did, collapsed. 24 specifically pertaining to these guys, if there is any25 ADV NEL: Yes. 25 chance that you can get anything out of them I will makeTel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 15. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 781 1 myself available here if it needs to be as well, it is not 2 an issue. 3 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you for 4 that. 5 ADV NEL: Sorry, Dr Grieve, your contact 6 details that you have given us are they still the same? 7 DR GRIEVE: They are still the same. 8 ADV NEL: Same phone number, email, 9 residential address?10 DR GRIEVE: Ja.11 ADV NEL: Thank you.12 PRESIDING OFFICER: Thank you very much13 everyone.14 DR GRIEVE: I am going to send that email15 out, I am not going to say when because it is going to take16 a couple of days to compile it. Leaving early now I can17 actually still go and do a job that I have got on ice.18 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay no, of course.19 DR GRIEVE: But before the weekend I will20 have it out and I will have my contact details refreshed21 again anyway, they are still the same, but you will have22 them on that email again as well. That will got to Bianca23 and to the chairlady.24 PRESIDING OFFICER: I will go through it25 and if there is anything that I can do then I will take Page 782 1 action and inform you. 2 DR GRIEVE: I doubt whether there is 3 anything you can do, but just be aware of it. 4 PRESIDING OFFICER: Okay. Thank you, 5 everyone, I am postponing this inquiry sine die. 6 [INQUIRY ADJOURNED] 7 . 8 . 9 .10 .11 .12 .13 .14 .15 .16 .17 .18 .19 .20 .21 .22 .23 .24 .25 .Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 16. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 1 A 752:5 753:7 737:23 745:20 752:25 764:7,15 765:15 clients 776:11 able 737:10,14 answer 741:15 752:25 757:10 761:18,22,24 769:17 774:6 closest 740:6 absolute 735:4 755:22 759:3 762:9,25 763:6,11,20 bring 730:10 733:11 clue 751:15 abused 761:17 anybody 779:8 770:19 771:15 775:13 738:10 758:24 coccyx 763:3 accept 732:8 738:19 anymore 770:7 780:9 bringing 732:13 collapsed 766:14 750:3 760:17 764:4 anyway 768:20 781:21 bad 736:11 broke 761:18 778:24 accepted 730:24 apart 762:7 badmouthing 736:15 broken 738:24 761:7 collapses 762:15 account 730:11,20,23 apologise 746:4 755:24 bank 729:12,15,16 762:20 collateral 765:5 732:9 744:17 755:23 772:8 730:11,11,14 748:10 brother 754:18 761:3 collect 776:3 756:11 765:25 766:8 apparently 733:18 bar 729:6 736:11 brought 729:14 come 735:15 764:14 777:18 778:6 appear 746:19,20,22 based 749:25 756:11 Brummer 768:7,8,8,20 766:10 778:12 accounts 731:11,16,21 appearance 774:3 765:14 773:25 774:23 770:16 776:24 778:7 comes 735:10 775:22 accumulating 769:25 appears 741:1,4 753:22 basically 734:5 bundle 731:8 740:12 comfortable 729:18 accurate 733:23 772:12 basis 742:6 774:19 748:19 754:8 772:4 733:7 758:20 acquaintances 736:24 application 740:14,22 bear 759:2 bury 761:2 coming 771:15 act 756:3 778:17 740:25 743:24 746:24 bed 766:12 business 745:18 762:4 Commissioner 732:12 action 773:22,23,24 775:3 779:5 bedridden 766:12 762:5,6 764:19,19 746:1 750:21,24 782:1 applies 764:15 770:20 buy 741:13 751:1,8 754:14,18,23 actual 742:18 743:8 appointed 768:11 beds 763:8,11 buyer 743:7 757:8,12,15 745:21 746:25 appraisal 769:7 behalf 745:3 760:15 commit 775:21 added 751:16,18 appreciate 731:17 774:13,16 C companies 769:18 addition 752:2 732:14 768:25 775:24 believe 729:12 741:11 C 752:5 771:11 772:13 company 742:5,9 address 735:16 737:14 approach 740:20 742:4 bell 765:22 773:1,8 compared 777:23 737:15 781:9 752:24 best 761:4 calculated 756:23 compile 781:16 addresses 735:13 approached 741:9,12 better 769:17 770:10 call 734:10 743:25 completed 741:1 739:11 approval 747:21 748:3 Bianca 729:8 781:22 752:25 755:15 756:18 751:22,25 ADJOURNED 782:6 approved 748:9 bit 740:14 745:21 769:16,18 780:15,23 completely 763:3 ADJOURNS 732:20 approximately 775:18 748:15 750:9 752:24 called 736:24 765:18 completion 740:21 advance 756:23 arisen 770:2 760:25 767:14 776:19 concern 745:13 778:22 advanced 746:19 arranged 764:20 blanket 763:10 Canada 763:14 769:2,3 concerned 776:21 755:20,22 765:15 arriving 771:8 blankets 763:10 769:4 concluded 746:14 770:1 773:8 asked 731:11 766:9 Boet 773:4 Canadian 769:10,11 759:19 760:6 advice 777:7 779:25 asking 767:19 bogus 735:5 can’t 734:18 738:8 concrete 738:11 advised 748:8 assist 758:25 771:13 bond 741:5,19 742:12 750:7 751:15 754:1,2 confidence 738:10 Africa 761:2 776:19 assistance 732:16 743:1,2,6,7,10,12,14 754:9 770:7 772:21 confirm 732:23 767:13 777:21,23 740:19 743:19 745:15,18,24 775:8 confusion 732:7 767:14 African 777:1 assistant 768:13,21 747:7,10,22 748:7 capacity 730:20 731:14 consider 778:5 Afrikaans 772:16,18 assisting 729:8 760:3 751:17 762:8,9,11 Car 732:2,4 consumers 777:22 aggressively 752:19 assume 756:22 757:13 765:12 card 730:19,22,23 contact 781:5,20 ago 742:17 743:9 749:1 779:14 bone 763:2,2 739:23 753:19,19 contacts 736:24 763:13,13 766:14 assumption 749:4,25 bones 763:2 care 763:12,15 779:2 contract 752:10 769:8 775:12 754:13,14,21 756:6 Bornman 750:12,20 779:18 conveyancer 744:5 agree 741:2 746:11 attend 770:18 751:23 753:11 762:3 carries 770:6 conveyancers 744:6 agreed 765:11 attendance 732:16 764:18 771:10,12 caught 762:11 copy 749:11,17,22 agreement 742:19 attention 733:12 772:13 773:2,8 779:3 cell 758:3 753:19 764:21 743:9 744:11 745:21 758:25 borrowed 742:8 Centurion 773:5 Cornelius 747:16,16 745:24 746:14,18,25 attorney 733:17 735:19 borrower 744:1 746:8 certain 730:11 736:23 750:12 771:11 747:10 756:11 759:19 741:8 752:1 763:19 borrowers 777:21 742:1 correct 729:12,13 764:1,5,21 773:15,25 763:20,21 767:5,6,6 Botha 729:11,11,13,17 certainly 777:22 730:13 731:22 732:10 774:19 775:17 767:10,13 778:8,12 729:20,23,23 730:1,6 certificate 766:23 740:22 742:15 743:16 allowed 777:23 attorneys 744:17 745:3 730:10,13,16,19,21 768:14 770:21 744:2,3,14,18 745:6 Alright 732:21 734:5 747:6 748:1,25 749:4 730:24 731:3,6,8,10 certifies 753:10 755:16 747:19 761:5 750:6 752:3 754:25 731:13,22,25 732:4,6 chairlady 781:23 correctly 740:18 743:8 alternate 747:8 755:6 756:11 765:16 732:10,12,15,18 chance 780:25 752:20 765:11 America 776:20 attorney’s 748:16,19 Botha/TP 744:5 charge 777:23 correspondence 736:21 Americas 777:24 authority 744:9 746:21 bound 760:10 chasing 752:18 costs 755:17 756:23 amount 742:7 744:16 750:19 Bowman 729:7,9 767:3 checked 735:20 757:2 769:18 746:18 755:8,19 available 780:15 781:1 768:5 770:22 771:1 choked 760:25 costs/interest 756:17 756:10,16 764:6 average 762:22 boys 763:9 CJ 771:16 773:18 counsel 729:6 734:10 765:12 769:25 avoiding 773:22 bridge 743:5 778:23 779:13,14 couple 736:8 737:19 amounts 760:13,17 awaiting 743:13 Bridging 729:4 740:18 clarity 732:7 764:4 764:3 781:16 Annette 740:8 741:1 aware 759:18 778:22 740:19,20 741:21 classified 777:2,10 course 779:25 781:18 744:1,20 752:24 782:3 742:4,5,5,8 744:12 clear 744:11 court 768:11 774:22 759:20 773:18 745:2,14 746:14 clearly 764:15 778:2 Annexure 746:23,25 B 750:5 755:7 756:9 client 741:12,14 745:6 cover 775:19 back 732:21 736:1 759:19 760:10,20 750:19 751:20 Craig 752:5 758:7,15Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
  • 17. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 2 created 736:14 751:17 753:6,7 758:12 first 729:10 734:7,21 781:24 credit 730:19,22,23 764:16 773:19 evil 736:11 740:20 743:22 746:23 God 730:5 733:3 753:18,19 778:17 documentation 775:2 exactly 739:2 741:7 747:9 750:19 755:3 758:14 creditors 776:2 documents 731:5,9 EXAMINATION 761:9,15 goes 743:19 criteria 745:15,17 732:13 745:1 753:24 730:9 740:2 759:8 firstly 764:12 going 729:15 732:17 747:21 763:17,25 774:5 example 741:21 five 738:2 734:21 735:17 739:2 crucial 748:13 doing 729:10 749:24 excludes 773:3 fix 762:21 741:22 742:14 749:4 cupboards 761:12,13 757:24 764:1 771:18 excuse 732:17 780:5 floor 761:12 763:9 755:21 757:13 760:22 763:7 775:19 778:11 excused 732:19 757:7 followed 761:19,20 761:21,24 762:12 curtail 760:16 dollars 769:10,11 780:7 follows 755:22 766:20 767:4 768:25 cut 777:4 don’t 732:5 733:15 executed 763:19 food 761:13 769:16 771:12 772:15 736:1,2,19 738:6 exist 748:20,21 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  • 18. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 3 Hi 757:18 instructions 744:11 know 733:6 734:11,18 look 736:1 739:8,19 money 742:2 744:12 High 768:11 749:18 755:25 756:9 734:19 736:2,19 740:5 743:8 749:13 752:18 762:10 764:15 higher 777:14 776:1 738:7,9,18 747:15 762:2 765:7 766:13 765:3 766:2,6,7 770:1 highly 770:20 intentions 779:14 749:5,16 751:13 775:22 776:3 779:4 Hire 732:3,4 intents 746:9 754:10 756:2 757:23 looking 739:4 746:2 monies 765:24 773:8 hired 767:7 774:7,7 interest 755:14 757:2 759:3 763:5,8 764:16 751:17 month 743:4 745:11 hold 737:24 738:2 769:17,19,23,25 765:21 768:15 771:7 lot 734:25 761:10 763:13 home 763:7 770:3,6,12 773:3 771:12,15,17,19 love 761:20 months 741:24 763:17 hometown 762:23 776:18,19,21 777:2,6 773:14,19 776:6 775:21,21 honest 751:14 777:13,14,23 778:2,7 777:22 778:6,23 M morning 729:11,11 honour 764:5 778:9 779:19 knowledge 759:18 M 730:17 733:18 775:11 hope 778:13 interested 736:4 knows 743:4 Madam 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  • 19. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 4 odd 736:7 754:2 746:21 750:18 753:4 proceedings 729:1 realised 752:23 Risk 751:5,10 771:24 Odendaal 740:8 741:2 760:17 764:6 738:9,12 739:13 really 736:6 766:18 772:11 744:1,1,20,23 745:3,7 payments 752:21 760:16 reasonable 780:14,15 RMB 729:12 746:15 752:24 754:11 pending 775:3 proceeds 741:5,20 recall 750:7,10 754:9 robbed 761:9 755:7,20 756:14 people 735:12 737:4 742:12 743:5,10,12 receive 736:9,12 role 738:9 759:20,23 760:15 742:1 762:1,3 745:24 received 733:19 735:11 Rorich 767:24 764:13,14 765:12 Percy 730:12 731:15,21 process 734:14 735:16 737:6 748:11 Rose 744:1 766:3,9 770:17,19 period 762:7 promises 752:21 753:4 748:23 766:5,7 roughly 772:24 771:8 773:4 774:14 person 738:13,14 promissory 772:6,10 770:16 rubbish 735:4 736:3 774:22 739:22 740:19 742:23 properly 778:11 recollection 749:25 run 770:7 776:16 offered 750:9 743:17 747:16,17 properties 763:15 recommendation 750:6 running 770:7 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  • 20. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 5 771:24 772:12 specialist 762:22 752:20 756:4 779:19 737:6 743:20 747:20 748:22 sets 745:7,7 753:9 specialists 762:25 take 734:24 738:14,20 three 731:11 742:16 754:17,24 765:10,18 settle 747:14,17 specific 736:12 742:22 742:18 743:3 763:12 761:18,22 762:19 768:5 769:21 772:22 settled 747:11 754:2 780:11 763:15,16 768:20 763:13,16 775:14,21 774:12 settling 747:7 specifically 780:24 770:15 776:23 778:1 775:21 understandable 776:13 seven 761:16 specify 780:20 778:6 779:25 781:15 tidy 763:12 understanding 741:20 Shane 752:5 758:7,15 spine 762:21 781:25 till 748:11 744:10 754:20 773:24 shapes 735:2 spoke 775:11 taken 734:8 768:13 Tim 752:20 754:25 775:2 short 760:23 769:13,13 spoken 744:25 771:16 777:18 779:2,18 755:6 undertake 773:2 777:10,14 spokesperson 753:1 talk 743:11 time 744:25,25 749:1 undertaking 748:2,16 shortly 770:17 square 762:9 talked 761:25 762:17 751:18 752:9,13,24 748:19,24,24 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  • 21. 8th February 2011 Dr Grieve - Inquiry in terms of Section 417 and 418 Inquiry Page 6 736:21 737:5 762:2 1157 773:5 762:12 763:6 13 759:10 what’s 734:22 775:22 15 735:13 whereabouts 771:12 18 761:3 whichever 747:8 778:8 wife 735:16,16 2 windows 761:7 762:8 20 753:11 witness 729:11 732:19 2009 730:25 731:3 780:7 755:11 756:19 757:3 Wolmarans 767:24 770:2 woman 760:24 761:12 2011 729:1,3 wonderful 736:10 22 750:21,25 751:1 won’t 775:8 22nd 731:1 word 739:4 769:17 25 751:7,8 772:3 words 774:4 26 751:7,19 772:7 work 735:23 736:7,9 27 730:25 762:5 780:19 27th 731:1,3 working 736:12 748:6 748:7 3 worth 765:5,6,7 30 773:2 wouldn’t 747:5 754:6 31 756:25 757:3 written 748:24 749:5 31st 756:20 759:13,13 wrong 742:15 754:16 4 754:22 450 769:24 X 5 X 734:17 500 745:11 57 773:4 Y Y 734:17 6 year 769:8 770:17 6 759:13 years 742:16 761:16 699 756:16 young 761:15 you’ll 733:11 740:7 8 744:9 745:21 750:18 8 729:1 755:11 756:19 751:3 775:12 776:23 8th 729:2 770:19 778:1 80 762:11 you’ve 729:14 743:15 767:13 774:18 9 9th 770:17 Z 90 762:11 Z 734:17 $ $1.9 769:9 0 000 744:2,16 755:12,19 756:10,16,18 762:11 762:11 764:17 765:8 765:15 766:2 769:24 770:1,2 773:2,11 050 755:8 770:2 09:37 729:2 1 1.1 765:6 1.2 765:6 10:17 732:21 10:37 750:11 10:51 757:16 100 765:8 100% 733:23 743:16 11:11 774:18 11:21 780:8Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za