CCDE Experience

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"CCDE Experience" free webex session presented on 9 Feb 2014 by Himawan Nugroho 3xCCIE#8171, CCDE#20130018

"CCDE Experience" free webex session presented on 9 Feb 2014 by Himawan Nugroho 3xCCIE#8171, CCDE#20130018

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  • If you haven’t entered a voucher or promotion code for 100% of the exam cost, your exam appointment cannot be completed without making payment. Pearson VUE accepts the following major credit cards: VISA, MasterCard, American Express and JCB. (Due to international verification issues, debit cards are not accepted.)
  • Pearson VUE Professional Testing CentersStandard Locations: ChicagoLondonAdditional Locations (vary based on testing window)Hong KongSydneyBangalore

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  • 1. CCDE Experiences Himawan Nugroho, 3xCCIE#8171, CCDE#2013::18 Based on Personal Experience and Cisco Live TECCCDE-8005 Jawdat 2012 1
  • 2. • This is my personal initiative to promote CCDE program • No endorsement from CCDE team • No guarantee you will pass the exam after you follow the suggested study plan • Any Cisco Live material used in this session is only a subset and the modified version • No NDA question, please Jawdat 2012 2
  • 3. About Me The Real Design Expert About CCDE (Cisco Live Techtorial) My CCDE Experience How to Prepare for CCDE Project DEW Jawdat 2012 3
  • 4. Jawdat 2012 4
  • 5. Jawdat 2012 5
  • 6. Jawdat 2012 6
  • 7. ‗‘It‘s not who you are underneath, it‘s what you do that defines you‖ Jawdat 2012 7
  • 8. Jawdat 2012 8
  • 9. Jawdat 2012 9
  • 10. The Real Design Expert Warriors! Jawdat 2012 10
  • 11. Jawdat 2012 11
  • 12. Jawdat 2012 12
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  • 14. Capture customer requirements, current network design, today's challenges and future requirements C Identify what customer wants vs. what customer I needs, identify the root cause of today's challenges Solve today's challenges, address current and S future requirements with the proposed design Communicate the proposed design to customer to C get feedback and discuss more design options Optimize the design to achieve the best suitable O solution for the customer Jawdat 2012 14
  • 15. Jawdat 2012 15
  • 16. Jawdat 2012 16
  • 17. Jawdat 2012 17
  • 18. Jawdat 2012 18
  • 19. • Basic design is no longer widely taught or practiced - It just works - It‘s easy - It‘s not exciting, it‘s just plumbing - It‘s not new • And yet... Basic design problems still crop up ―Exciting stuff‖ doesn‘t work without a solid routed design We spend far too much time and money managing failures in basic design work Jawdat 2012 19
  • 20. • Create a certification relevant to designers • Provide a baseline set of skills Builds on top of these skills, not in lieu of them Encourages picking up ―skipped skills‖ • Encourage end-to-end (big picture) design thinking Places in the Network are great, within the framework of a running network Technologies are great, but need to be used for larger design goals Jawdat 2012 20 20
  • 21. • Interact horizontally with middle level business management • Understand impact of business decisions and direction on design Jawdat 2012 21 21
  • 22. • Where is this network now? • What changes do I need to make to.... Merge these networks? Implement this application? Provide security? Prepare for the next five years? Jawdat 2012 22 22
  • 23. • How do I transition the network? Business hurdles? Technical hurdles? People hurdles? Jawdat 2012 23 23
  • 24. • Validates skills in job roles, including: Senior Network Designer and Architect Network Lead for Enterprise IT Infrastructure Team Network Lead for Enterprise Architecture Team • Emphasizes network design principles at the routing layer as well as the ability to assess and translate network business requirements into technical designs Jawdat 2012 24 24
  • 25. • This is not a business test There is no ―budget‖ for any given problem • But—there are business problems on the test Business problems provide the primary structure Business problems provide the primary driver towards specific technology solutions Jawdat 2012 25 25
  • 26. Senior Network Designer •Large scale network design •Variety of business environments •Troubleshoots and resolves design level issues Network Designer •Moderate scale networks •Narrow set of business environments •Designs components of larger networks Junior Network Designer •Understands network design fundamentals •Designs components of medium and large scale networks Jawdat 2012 26 26
  • 27. Jawdat 2012 27
  • 28. Jawdat 2012 28
  • 29. Certification Process CCDE Practical Exam 352-011 CCDE Written Exam 352001 Section One pass Section Two pass Lunch Section Three Section Four Jawdat 2012 29 29
  • 30. • Location: Pearson VUE Test Centers • Pre-requisite: None, though following is recommended: • Cost: $350 USD minimum of seven (7) years job experience in network engineering • Duration: 2 hours thorough understanding of networking infrastructure principles • Format: 90-110 items Multiple Choice in-depth understanding of the topics in the exam blueprints on CLN Drag & Drop Scored & non-scored items NO ―skip question‖, NO ―go back‖ Jawdat 2012 30 30
  • 31. Jawdat 2012 31 31
  • 32. • Location: Pearson VUE Professional Test Centers; event based (only offered on specific dates/locations) • Cost: $1500 USD • Duration: 9 hours (8 hour exam plus 1 hour mandatory lunch break) • Format: 4 scenario-based sections Approximately 20-35 items per scenario Scored & non-scored items NO ―skip question‖, NO ―go back‖ 24 inch monitors • Pre-requisite: CCDE Written Jawdat 2012 32 32
  • 33. Chicago San Jose Frankfurt London Toronto Madrid Istanbul Starting Feb 2014… Exam at 275 PPC Locations! Seoul Hong Kong NYC DC Durham Bangkok Sao Paulo Bangalore Sydney - ALL testing windows - ALL testing windows (as of Nov 2012) - Only certain testing windows Jawdat 2012 33 33
  • 34. Jawdat 2012 34 34
  • 35. • How to Keep CCDE Written Valid Initial attempt of CCDE Practical Pass CCDE Written must be within 18 months of passing CCDE written CCDE Written exam attempt must Candidates who do not pass CCDE be valid Practical must re-attempt CCDE Practical within 12 months of last scored attempt Candidates who do not pass CCDE Practical within three years of passing CCDE Written must retake • To maintain active CCDE the CCDE Written before being status, CCDEs are required to pass allowed to re-attempt CCDE expert-level certification exam every 24 Practical months After 24 months, CCDE is suspended. Suspended candidates have one year to recertify with CCDE Written else all • To take exam, candidate must: Jawdat 2012 35 35
  • 36. • Unlike CCIE, there is partial score in CCDE • Exam results scored after each administration; Candidates receive results PASS or FAIL immediately at the end of exam! It seems like now it‘s only automated grading using scoring rubrics and statistical analysis (no manual grading) Some items are worth multiple points, with partial scoring Some items have multiple solutions Must achieve minimum score to pass • Once you pass, it may take several days to get your CCDE number Jawdat 2012 36 36
  • 37. PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP Jawdat 2012 37 37
  • 38. PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP PIM SM PIM RP MSDP Jawdat 2012 38 38
  • 39. Note which requirements each technology listed below would fulfill LISP Traffic Security Requirements LISP Routing Security Requirements SLA Requirements L3VPN (MPLS) L2TPv3 VPLS (MPLS) GRE Tunnels Jawdat 2012 39 39
  • 40. Note which requirements each technology listed below would fulfill LISP Traffic Security Requirements LISP Routing Security Requirements SLA Requirements L3VPN (MPLS) L2TPv3 VPLS (MPLS) GRE Tunnels Jawdat 2012 40 40
  • 41. Jawdat 2012 41
  • 42. • CCDE Blueprints: represent important high-level designspecific topics assessed by CCDE Written and CCDE Practical exams • Exam questions are aligned to blueprints in order to assess candidates‘ expert-level designrelated skills, knowledge, and abilities Exam URL CCDE Written https://learningnetwork.cisco. com/community/certifications/ ccde/written_exam?tab=2 https://learningnetwork.cisco. CCDE Practical com/community/certifications/ ccde/practical_exam?tab=stu dylearn Jawdat 2012 42 42
  • 43. Jawdat 2012 43
  • 44. • Task Domains • Job Tasks • Technologies Jawdat 2012 44 44
  • 45. • Merge/Divest • Add Technology • Replace Technology • Scaling Jawdat 2012 45 45
  • 46. • Analyze • Design • Implement & Deploy • Validate & Optimize Jawdat 2012 46 46
  • 47. • Essentially… Any published RFC implemented by more than one vendor Any common industry technology Any common industry practice EIGRP (may see LISP, OTV, DMVPN too) • You do not ―go forth and configure‖ This is higher level than the ―?‖ • This is not about choosing the right equipment in the right place Hardware limitations only come in at a high level Jawdat 2012 47 47
  • 48. Layer 2 Control Plane Spanning Tree vs. L2 Fabric Down Detection, Failure Domain, Multicast First Hop Redundancy + Spanning Tree Layer 3 Control Plane OSPF, IS-IS, EIGRP, BGP, PIM SM/SSM/Bidir Application (MTU, IP vs. MPLS), Routing, Scaling, Interprovider, Traffic Engineeing New technology: LISP, DMVPN Quality of Services Classification, CBWFQ, WRED, Shaping QoS model, hierarchical, QoS inside tunnel Network Management Modularity, Hierarchy, Resiliency (HA/FC) FCAPS, SNMP, Syslog, Netflow, RMON Choosing a core In-band, OOB, Baseline Network Virtualization 802.1q, MPLS L3 vs. L2, L2TPv3, IPSec, GRE Security DoS, GTSM, RPF, IPSec, Infra, QoS, RTBH Jawdat 2012 48 48
  • 49. • How rapidly does the business change? • What is the business sizing model (growth/downsize/steady)? • What are the key business processes? • What is the business‘ attitudes towards the network? Jawdat 2012 49 49
  • 50. • What are the key applications on the network? • What are the characteristics of this set of applications? Bandwidth requirements? Tolerance for delay? Tolerance for jitter? Tolerance of network reconvergence? Jawdat 2012 50 50
  • 51. • What‘s the bandwidth? • What‘s the delay profile? • What‘s the jitter profile? • How fast does layer 3 learn about a failure? Jawdat 2012 51 51
  • 52. • All of these drivers meet at layer 3, the control plane This is why the CCDE is a control plane driven test If you can‘t do layer 3, you can‘t build a network that will support business requirements and applications on top of available links and hardware • The control plane provides the tools to bring layer 9, layer 7, and layer 1 together Jawdat 2012 52 52
  • 53. Jawdat 2012 53
  • 54. • Why would you configure A as ABR? To reduce Router B‘s routing table size To reduce the complexity of the full mesh To reduce the impact of Router B failing at Router C To reduce the total time required to run SPF at Router A ABR? Jawdat 2012 54 54
  • 55. • When using any form of IPSec over GRE tunneling (for instance, DMVPNs) over a public or private network, how many routing instances will you need to provide full reachability? One Two Three Four Jawdat 2012 55 55
  • 56. • Which would you deploy to increase the throughput of multiple TCP traffic flows on a single link? Head of queue dropping Traffic Policing Weighted RED Traffic Shaping Jawdat 2012 56 56
  • 57. Jawdat 2012 57
  • 58. • A single network infrastructure to lower cost Jawdat 2012 58 58
  • 59. • Privacy protection for customers • No client-to-client leakage Routing separation Traffic separation • Resilience and fast convergence Jawdat 2012 59
  • 60. • Traffic must pass through a firewall between the client and the data center • Client routes carried in BGP, not in local IGP • Traffic carried outside the LISP network will be carried in SSL or IPsec Jawdat 2012 60 60
  • 61. IPsec tunnel termination Jawdat 2012 61 61
  • 62. • Holey Doughnuts has done a security audit • Their auditors discovered they can reach servers not belonging to Holey Doughnuts! They specifically mention being able to reach the servers used by SuperExcel They note there are routes they don‘t recognize on their CE Jawdat 2012 62 62
  • 63. • Is Holey Doughnut‘s ability to see routes from SuperExcel, and reach SuperExcel‘s servers, a problem that needs to be addressed by LISP? Yes No Jawdat 2012 63 63
  • 64. The answer is yes Jawdat 2012 64 64
  • 65. • This Is Not a Problem LISP Needs to Solve • Why don‘t you think this is a problem that needs to be addressed by LISP? Holy Doughnut‘s engineers cannot get to SuperExcel‘s data, so this is not a breach of the SLA Holy Doughnuts should address this by reconfiguring their route and packet filters The LISP Service Level Agreement with Holy Doughnuts does not cover this situation The LISP engineering team has bigger things to worry about than this problem Jawdat 2012 65 65
  • 66. • This Is Not a Problem LISP Needs to Solve • Why don‘t you think this is a problem that needs to be addressed by LISP? Holy Doughnut‘s engineers cannot get to SuperExcel‘s data, so this is not a breach of the SLA Holy Doughnuts should address this by reconfiguring their route and packet filters The LISP Service Level Agreement with Holy Doughnuts does not cover this situation The LISP engineering team has bigger things to worry about than this problem Jawdat 2012 66 66
  • 67. • This Is a Problem LISP Needs to Solve • Why do you think this problem needs to be addressed by LISP? LISP should not be leaking the SuperExcel routes to their other clients LISP should not be allowing telnet traffic from Holey Donuts to SuperExcel‘s servers LISP is not fulfilling their service level agreement correctly Jawdat 2012 67 67
  • 68. • This Is a Problem LISP Needs to Solve • Why do you think this problem needs to be addressed by LISP? LISP should not be leaking the SuperExcel routes to their other clients LISP should not be allowing telnet traffic from Holey Donuts to SuperExcel‘s servers LISP is not fulfilling their service level agreement correctly Jawdat 2012 68 68
  • 69. • Which solution would resolve this problem in a way that supports both the SLA and the LISP business model? Using Policy Based Routing to separate customer traffic Creating a physical per customer to separate customer traffic Provisioning a separate virtual topology per customer Configuring a separate IGP instance per customer to separate customer routes Jawdat 2012 69 69
  • 70. • Which solution would resolve this problem in a way that supports both the SLA and the LISP business model? Using Policy Based Routing to separate customer traffic Creating a physical per customer to separate customer traffic Provisioning a separate virtual topology per customer Configuring a separate IGP instance per customer to separate customer routes We need traffic separation as well a routing separation Jawdat 2012 70 70
  • 71. • A single network infrastructure to lower cost Jawdat 2012 71 71
  • 72. • What additional piece of information would you need to determine which virtualization service you would use to separate customer traffic in this network? The tunneling technologies the firewalls support The tunneling technologies the call managers support Tunneling technology used to connect to customer CEs Jawdat 2012 72 72
  • 73. • From time to time during the test, you will be asked what further information you need to complete the task • If you already have a specific piece of information, don‘t ask for it! This might not match ―real life‖ as well as you‘d like But the question is trying to evaluate whether or not you know the information you need to solve the problem • This is one of the analytical skills the test is designed to measure Jawdat 2012 73 73
  • 74. https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/docs/DOC-2438 Let me know if you can pass it! Jawdat 2012 74 74
  • 75. Jawdat 2012 75
  • 76. Jawdat 2012 76
  • 77. • Technical Skills L2 Control plane, L3 Control plane, Tunneling/Virtualization, QoS, Network Management and Security • Design/Project/Customer skills Capture and analyze requirement Develop network design Implement network design Validate and optimize network design • Plus Network Design experiences, in multiple technologies as well as from vertical and different industries like SP, Enterprise, Financial, Retail and so on Jawdat 2012 77
  • 78. Why, when, and where to use which technology to answer requirements? • • • • • First step: Gap analysis for technical skills CCDE Written is the benchmark CCIE means no need to read many technical books anymore Possess design experience with SP and Large Enterprise with Cisco Advanced Services Possess design experience with Enterprise, Education, Finance, Government with Cisco partner CCIE + Experience • • • • • • Watch almost 40 Cisco Live recording videos Read several Cisco Live slides Skim Cisco Design Zone Only read CCDE Quick reference for written Read Optimal Routing Design to understand Russ White Skim Definitive MPLS Network Design for sample scenarios Cisco Live, CVD, b ook • • • • • • • • • • Comparing L2 design option Failure domain in Layer 2 Which IGP Routing Protocol Modular and Hierarchy design Fast Convergence, HA Which Tunneling mechanism MPLS L3VPN vs. L2VPN Different QoS scenarios Which Management tool Refresh Security concept Practice Scenarios 33 Days since Gap analysis Jawdat 2012 78
  • 79. Jawdat 2012 79
  • 80. Jawdat 2012 80
  • 81. • Get CCIE • Get Real Design Experience • Ask ―Why CCDE?‖ -> motivation • Pass Written, Book Seat • Understand the exam creator, Russ White • Read Books, Watch Cisco Live, Skim CVDs • Take Practical Exam • After Fail, Gap Analysis of Technical Skills • Re-take Until Pass http://www.himawan.nu/2013/05/how-to-become-ccde.html Jawdat 2012 81 81
  • 82. CCIE is not required, but will make it easier • You still need to have a good reason to do it ―why CCDE?‖ -> motivation • You still need real design experience Especially for Job Tasks: Analyze requirement, Develop, Implement, Validate and Optimize • Self-assess the Technology topics Use CCDE Written Blueprint as guidance • Pass written, book seat immediately • Read, or watch from CiscoLive365.com • Think beyond configuration for Technology Think about Task Domain: Merge/Divest, Add, Replace, Scaling for each technology • Master the skill of ―skimming‖ • Take Practical Exam http://www.himawan.nu/2013/07/how-to-prepare-for-ccde-practical-exam.html Jawdat 2012 82 82
  • 83. Jawdat 2012 83
  • 84. How to Learn Anything… Fast? • Chose lovable project • One skill at a time • Target performance level • Remove barriers to practice • Make time • Fast feedback loops • Deconstruction • Practice in short bursts • Obtain critical tools • Quantity and speed www.first20hours.com Jawdat 2012 84 84
  • 85. Break Down CCDE Topics into Sub-Skills • Layer 2 control plane (STP, fabric, down detection, failure domain, multicast, FHRP, switch clustering, multipath, loop detection etc) • Layer 3 control plane (OSPF, ISIS, EIGRP, BGP, PIM, Modularity, Hierarchy, FC/Resiliency, Core topology, routing policy, IPv6 etc) • Network virtualization (802.1q, MPLS L3VPN, L2VPN, L2TPv3, IPsec, GRE, routing, scaling, inter-AS, traffic engineering, IPv6 transition etc) • Quality of Services (classification, CBWFQ, WRED, shaping, policing, QoS model, hierarchy, QoS inside tunnel etc) • Network Management and Framework (FCAPS, SNMP, Syslog, Netflow, RMON, In band, OOB, baseline etc) • Security (DDoS, GTSM, RPF, IPsec, Infrastructure security, QoS as security tool, RTBH, IPv6 security etc) Jawdat 2012 85 85
  • 86. Use References as Feedback in Learning • Cisco Validated Design • Cisco Documentation • Cisco Learning Network • Cisco Live Sessions • RFC • Study Group • CCDE Written • Design Expert Community Jawdat 2012 86 86
  • 87. Identify and Remove Barriers in Learning • Do you have Internet access? • Do you have Cisco Learning Login? • Do you have study materials? • Do you have access to Cisco Live recorded sessions? • Do you have place to study? • Do you have allocated time? Jawdat 2012 87 87
  • 88. First 20 (or more) Hours to Build Habit • Make time! • The first few hours is the most difficult • Remember Newton‘s first law: An object that is at rest will stay at rest unless an external force acts upon it • Study in daily basis • Be consistent in study and maintain the pace • Try to get experience to apply what you learn during the study Jawdat 2012 88 88
  • 89. Jawdat 2012 89
  • 90. Jawdat 2012 90
  • 91. • Onsite Bootcamp Jeremy Filiben 5-day for $4995 Fast Lane 5-day for $4995 DEW $700 per weekend x 3 = $ 2100 for 6 days Teach real skills, not exam-focused, onsite class available in APAC and EMEA Eligible to join FaceBook group ―Design Expert Warriors – DEW Community‖ • Online/Exam Focus INE 3-day for $ 995 Jeremy Filiben Self-paced for $995 • Best of both world: DEW + Others 3x weekend DEW + Jeremy self-paced = $2945 3x weekend DEW + Jeremy self-paced + INE 3-day = $3940 Jawdat 2012 91 91
  • 92. Jawdat 2012 92
  • 93. Jawdat 2012 93
  • 94. Why Design Expert Weekend? Because world needs more design experts! Jawdat 2012 94
  • 95. http://www.himawan.nu/2014/01/why-we-need-to-learn-during-weekend.html Jawdat 2012 95
  • 96. • DEW: Routing (3-4 Jan, Riyadh) IGP IPv4/IPv6, OSPF, IS-IS, EIGRP, BGP, scaling, inter-AS, HA, and include PIM, ASM, SSM Multicast • DEW: Tunneling (24-25 Jan, Dubai) MPLS-based L3VPN/L2VPN, tunnel protection/MPLS TE, other tunneling mechanism include IPv6 transition • DEW: SP Design (March, Asia) Physical, L2, IGP/BGP/LDP/PIM transport, MPLS services, Internet, IPTV, HA, QoS, security, management • DEW: ENT Design (TBD) Jawdat 2012 96
  • 97. • Technology Background Theory • Design Aspect of Technology • Questions on Each Topic • Homework and Discussion • CCDE-like Design Scenarios What? Why? How? Which One to Use? When and Where? Jawdat 2012 97
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  • 100. • Only one book for CCDE written This is essentially the written blueprint ―explained‖ The technologies covered on both the written and the practical are the same The written blueprint is focused on the technology, the practical on analysis Jawdat 2012 100 100
  • 101. Jawdat 2012 101 101
  • 102. Jawdat 2012 102
  • 103. Watch the core technology: IGP, Tunneling, and WAN Concept design - BRKRST-2310 Deploying OSPF in a Large Scale Network - BRKIPM-3010 Which Routing Protocol? IPv4 and IPv6 - BRKIPM-2444 EIGRP – An in depth look at the Protocol - BRKMPL-2101 Deploying L2 Based MPLS VPN - BRKCCIE-3345 CCIE Candidate Introduction to MPLS L3VPN - BRKCRS-2041 Enterprise WAN Architectures and Design Principles - BRKMPL-2109 MPLS Solutions for Cloud Networking - BRKRST-2042 Highly Available Wide Area Network Design Watch Campus design and QoS: - BRKCRS-2661 Designing Layer 2 Networks - Avoiding Loops, Drops, Flooding - BRKCRS-2031 Multilayer Campus Architectures and Design Principles - BRKRST-2501 Enterprise QoS or BRKCRS-2500 Campus QoS You may want to "speed watching" the following: - BRKSEC-4054 DMVPN Deployment Model - BRKRST-2301 Enterprise IPv6 Deployment - BRKSEC-2000 Secure Enterprise Design - BRKMPL-1261 IP Multicast Concept Design and Troubleshooting Some Cisco Live sessions that were not recorded, but slides are available: - BRKRST-2335 IS-IS Network Design and Deployment - BRKIPM-2261 Deploying IP Multicast - BRKMPL-2105 Inter-AS MPLS Solutions - TECSEC-2011 IPSec and SSL VPNs Jawdat 2012 103 103
  • 104. • Smart Business Architecture http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns982/networking_solutions_program_home.html • Medianet http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns819/networking_solutions_program_home.html • Campus http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns815/networking_solutions_program_home.html • Security http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns744/networking_solutions_program_home.html • Borderless http://www.cisco.com/en/US/netsol/ns1063/networking_solutions_program_home.html Jawdat 2012 104 104
  • 105. • Cisco Learning Network (CLN) Overview: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/index.jspa?ciscoHome=true CCDE: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/community/certifications/ccde CCDE Written: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/community/certifications/ccde/written_exam CCDE Practical: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/community/certifications/ccde/practical_exam CCDE Study Group: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/groups/ccde-study-group CCDE Book Reading List: https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/docs/DOC-1673 Jawdat 2012 105 105
  • 106. Jawdat 2012 106
  • 107. If You Are Not CCIE, You May Want to Read These… Jawdat 2012 107 107
  • 108. And Read These… Jawdat 2012 108 108
  • 109. And Read These Too… Jawdat 2012 109 109
  • 110. Questions? Jawdat 2012 110