Commercial Property Receivership
Challenges and Opportunities
Brecht Palombo and Greg Trotter of Commercial Building Consultants
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Brecht: Good morning. This is Brecht Palombo with
www.distressedpro.com and thanks for being on the line today. Today I
have Greg Tro>er of commercial building consultants. He is based in
Orlando, Florida. He has been out there working with lenders and
developers for more than ten years and the reason why I have him on the
phone today is because I have been geDng a lot of requests from
members for informaFon on receivership and on property preservaFon. So
Greg has been in that business for more than ten years. He is doing deals
all over the country and so we are psyched to have him on the phone and
so without further ado, Greg, welcome. How are you doing?
Greg: Really good thanks. Thanks for calling. This is an issue and an area
that is really near and dear to my heart and I fully enjoy this area of the
industry is asset management and asset preservaFon.
Greg: I started 31 years ago in commercial construcFon and I found that
the last ten years have been really either monitoring assets, preserving
assets, or turning around properFes and projects for various lenders and
developers and it is a lot of fun. We say it around here as we get paid to
eat ice cream. Everything is geDng be>er in Orlando and that is the report
Brecht: Well that is good. So, 31 years, that means you came through sort
of our ﬁrst major real estate crunch in the late 80s and 90s. Tell me a li>le
bit about what you were doing then and maybe a li>le bit about how
today diﬀers or is it the same.
Greg: Sure. I think that I have a real interesFng perspecFve because I got
out of school in 1978 and I was out there during the 1980 to 1982 ﬁnancial
distress. You are in one of the areas of the country that was really hit hard.
That would be New England, northern New York, New York area, as well as
parts of the Midwest. And since I was in construcFon and development,
the only thing available to do at that point in Fme, the only projects you
could work on was government projects where there was a subsidized
housing, elderly housing, medium income housing, but basically, what it
was the only thing coming out of the ground during that period. The only
thing that could get any money was subsidized housing projects and so
that is all I was doing then was this mulF‐family product so I got to become
really comfortable and familiar with it back then. Fortunately we kind of
climbed out of it in 1982. And then what happens from there is you go
from student housing and then you go to industrial and commercial and
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oﬃce and you go through these various cycles in the construcFon industry
and you follow them and you all of a sudden become expert in all areas
and here we are today in another crunch.
Greg: As far as how they compare, back then, for me it does not diﬀer a
whole lot, but believe me the changes that have occurred between the
1980 to 1982 and where we are now‐ this one is much more pervasive.
This is a huge ﬁnancial collapse in the country and worldwide and it has
aﬀected everybody. I do not care if you are an airline; you are a retailer, a
publisher, or a jail bondsman. Your business is down. Funny enough but I
am talking everybody has been aﬀected by this change in market. And it is
staggering because before, in the '80‐'82, it was developers, real estate
banks, some high‐tech. There were some weaknesses in some other
sectors of the economy, but it was not everybody like it is in this one and
so this is a biggy. This is the worst I have ever seen it.
Brecht: Right, well I am hearing that a lot. Tell me a li>le bit about what
you were doing during the run up just unFl sort of late '90s or 2000
through I guess 2007 or 2008 when we sort of peaked and realized we
were in the crunch‐ what were you doing then?
Greg: This is the great thing is that as a result of the problems in the
'80s‐'82, what did we learn? We learned that projects were geDng funded
that were in fact not happening. Literally pieces of land were siDng there
and banks were geDng applicaFons for payment for projects being built
where they were not being built. What happened as a result of that is my
job was created. Now, ﬁrst of all, I went through that crunch and I was
really hurt hard. Between the 1980 and the '82 crunch and then the 1990
crunch, I mean I was wiped out and I think if you live that, you really
appreciate your job when it is created as a result of that. So my job, day in
and day out, for say 1999 through say 2007 was doing due diligence and
what is that. That means if you are buying a dealership, apartment or
hotel, a restaurant, apartment complex, or a whole poraolio of them, you
need to evaluate all the physical aspects of the property. That means the
roof, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, pipe drainage, parking, lighFng, that
sort of thing and the lender needs that and by the way, the ulFmate owner
needs to know what is going on and they need the capital planning budget
of what he needs to do for the next twelve years during the term of the
loan. We do that all day long. So we would do what we call property
condiFon assessments. Along with that you do environmental site
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assessments to make sure there is no issue with the property from nearby
gas staFons and that sort of thing.
Brecht: Sure, 21‐E.
Greg: I am sorry‐‐?
Brecht: 21‐E studies?
Greg: Exactly, so we‐ hundreds each year. Along with that, what happens is
we also do a lot of bank draws where we are monitoring construcFon as it
is either something geDng renovated or building ground up. And all of a
sudden we are this huge data cruncher of knowing what the prices of
everything that is going on. we are talking to various part sectors of the
industry because we are just siDng on the site talking to owners, buyers,
contractors, developers and we are doing this all around the country. Why
would we do it all around the country is that eventually lenders, if they
really want to know the hard truth of what is going on with the project and
that there is not going to be an issue with it going to permanent ﬁnancing.
They want someone there who cares, picks up the li>le nuances. Is there
an issue? Is there not an issue? Is this thing going to be a successful
project? Is it going to make money? We are the eyes and ears for the
lenders out in the ﬁeld.
Greg: It is a wonderful job, because you get to be in the trades, go ﬁgure
out what is going on and you have great cost data of what is going on
month to month to month on all 16 divisions of construcFon.
Brecht: So that brings you up to the credit crunch. And as we know, there
are lots of changes have happened since then just in terms of who is able
to get money for what. And so what has changed for you or what are you
doing diﬀerent in your business now or what are people asking you to do
diﬀerently than you were doing before?
Greg: Well it has really dramaFcally changed. I mean we are talking people
just shaking their heads and wondering if their phone works. Going back to
the ‐there is even default in good Fmes. There is going to be problems with
various assets that lenders have and since we were on the ﬁeld, our boots
were on the ground, we would go in and work out various projects for
lenders who the developer got put in prison or lec the project or just did
not get it or had a problem with the contractor. We do various work out
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situaFons where we would just get everybody to hold hands together. We
would go into projects that literally, one famous here in Orlando, where
the project just sort of sat there in the high drive area and it was really
quite an eyesore half completed and we were assigned to take care of that
project for a lender out of New York as it went through bankruptcy and so
forth. It is kind of a fun story. Lenders usually do not end up on the posiFve
when a property goes to REO. But all said and done, because of the
market, because it is a diﬀerent era than right now, the lender gets all its
fees, gets full proceeds back, and ends up totally whole including all fees
from legal fees, interest fees, late interest fees, on and on and they also say
that helped my career because that was 1999‐2000. for a lender to end up
whole on a project that went to REO pre>y much means they thought I
walked on water. From there, you have one success leads to another leads
to another and so it was a lot of fun to sort of put the various due diligence
we were doing, the bank draw work we were doing, and helping lenders,
developers through problem Fmes on their project in the good Fmes.
What happened then is when the brakes got hit and I am going to say
around August of 2007, when it was really obvious to us, we were going
into full‐blown REO work. Give you an example of one project where my
wife and I packed up the house and moved onto a project in south Florida
because these lenders did not have any conﬁdence with regard to what
the developer was going to do. So there was a forbearance agreement
signed and the keys were turned over to me and the lenders wanted the
thing completed and we lived on the project and completed it.
Brecht: Wow. That is funny.
Greg: It was a lot of fun, because right in the middle of Biscayne Bay and it
was a tough assignment, but someone had to do it.
Brecht: I am sorry. I was just going to say that is a great segue for what I
want to talk about‐ is a li>le bit about the mechanics of receivership. And I
know you are probably not always geDng moved into a project, but what
happens ‐at what point does the asset manager say I have to get Greg on
the phone and then acer they make that decision, kind of walk us through
what happens. What is involved? What is the goal? What is the typical
Greg: The good news is they all vary. They really do and what happens is
an asset manager sees a problem loan and he is monitoring it and all of a
sudden it looks like the developer is not going to pay anymore, has lec
town, whatever it is. He gets some sort of idea that he is stuck with this
property. What happens with that ﬁle is then it is looked over and quite
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honestly, what we see is that a lot of these folks that are stuck with this
situaFon have had no experience with REO. They are moved from another
part of the bank, underwriFng you know maybe where the loan originated.
They have no clue of what is going on or how to really approach this and
they have so many of these ﬁles that ‐ I have asset managers that excuse
themselves for all the boxes in their oﬃce not ﬁles, but boxes of ﬁles of
REO situaFons. So they are really overcome and they want to know sort of
what is out there and what they have. That is the puzzle you get to solve is
that okay, where do we really sit with the contractor, with liens, with the
authoriFes having jurisdicFon meaning the building department and the
housing department, whomever, and what do we have to do to right this
ship. What does it cost to complete? What were the problems? Why did
they stop? Was it a problem with unforeseen condiFons or was it simply
they ran out of money? A lot of Fmes it is not that project that is the
problem. It was another project that really sucked the life out of the
developer and/or lender or whatever and Fpped the boat over, if you will.
So we oﬀer that sort of soc sell service where the lender‐ our clients drive
the bus, meaning they can call up and say what do we have at such and
such an address. Or, they can do it fully engaged where it is their lawyer
who puts us as a court appointed receiver. And what that would mean is
you go in front of a judge and say Mr. Judge, this parFcular individual has a
loan on such and such property. They have obviously lec the property
defaulted for the last twelve to twenty‐four months on this loan, and it is
just siDng there as wasted property, is an issue with crime and safety,
blah, blah, blah. What happens is the judge either agrees or disagrees with
it, but typically they do when it gets to that point. And then CBC,
Commercial Building Consultants is listed as the court appointed receiver.
And our responsibility is to make it safe, make sure no one jumps in the
pool, walks oﬀ the pier, if you will, analyzes the building itself and sees
what needs it has to make sure it is preserved. And in some cases, when
we do a cost to complete on an asset, it looks like you are a kiss away from
geDng this thing completed and then you have a much more valuable
asset with X‐Y‐Z amount of input from the bank as far as proceeds you had
set aside for this loan anyways. We can get the building stabilized and up
and running and maybe you can sell it, lease it, or whatever. We work as
consultants. Our job is to take care of the bank to preserve or maybe even
improve the asset and help them out. I sit across from these folks all day
long and they just look at me and say I have ten more ﬁles on my desk
today than I did yesterday and I am a li>le overcome here and I do not
have a lot of road Fme to go around and check all this. There is more and
more of a demand for this as Fme goes on.
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Brecht: Right, so it sounds like most of the Fme you would be engaged
pre‐foreclosure. I know at least in my neck of the woods would typically
happens when commercial property is in default is that as the lender
moves to foreclose, there is a bankruptcy ﬁling. A large percentage of the
Fme, 70% to 80% of the Fme the debtor will ﬁle a Chapter 11, I should say
the owner would ﬁle a Chapter 11. Is that the Fmeframe when you get
Greg: Well, it all works with the loan documents. When you sign a loan as
a developer for owning a property or developing a property, there is a
number of kicks in there that all of a sudden puts you in default whether it
is not paying on Fme, not reporFng on Fme, not giving the informaFon as
far as what your rent rules are your revenue. There are a number of ways
that you can get into default and depending on how aggressive and how
the market is. The bank will either sit back or ignore problems like what is
happening right now, and/or in the good days, they just pulled the plug
and say all right, Mr. Developer, you are in default and we are taking the
property back and we are going to ﬁx it. It is all dependent upon the
market and the situaFon and really the experience of the asset manager
themselves and who is standing above them with a direcFve. That would
also be the Fed.
Brecht: Right, but it sounds like ‐‐
Greg: SomeFmes the FDIC is what drives the bus.
Brecht: It sounds like you are called in fairly early though, as soon as the
property is at some level of default, they want you to get a handle on kind
of what is going on over there. Is that accurate?
Greg: That is the best way. To be honest with you, that is not accurate at
all. it is one of those things where if you called us last week baby, you
would be in a lot be>er shape than you are this week and it is so true,
because let us go back to the scenario of the two‐year scenario. Let us say
that‐ and we are talking a large bank that everybody knows. Certainly a
large regional bank had been holding onto a property and not pulling us in,
maybe a year late. They could have easily done this a long Fme ago when
the market was be>er. It was more interest in taking a risk. There was
more equity out there to play with, therefore they could have cleaned
their slate of this parFcular asset but they did not want to acknowledge it.
They did not want to say that this is a non‐performing loan. These are the
eﬀects of their operaFon and it is hard to be in their posiFon right now.
One of the worst things in the world as far as a job to do‐ go>a be a
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banker. They have to acknowledge they have an issue and then work with
it and if they have to expend some money into it and that is diﬃcult when
you have a lot of defaulted loans.
Brecht: So what you are seeing now and I am hearing this from a lot of
folks sFll, is lenders delaying the paying.
Greg: Oh, absolutely. We have properFes that they have not seen
payments on for a long Fme. These are operaFonal properFes. Let us say
mulF‐family or hotels, or restaurants or whatever. And they have not seen
any revenue come from that loan for a year or two or whatever. They are
allowing the borrower to sit there and operate that property and pay the
uFliFes and keep it going because that means they do not have to expend
all that eﬀort. Really the best person to take care of that property is the
one that has been operaFng it. So right now, they are kind of kicking the
can down the road and sort of going okay, we are going to ignore that
because we have a lot of other problems right now and at least that
property is hot, warm, and operaFonal. It is moving along. We are not
going to deal with him/her unFl later and see what happens. That is the
big quesFon. What is going to happen?
Brecht: One of the quesFons I had from a member without geDng too
speciﬁc. I do not want to get into rates or amounts or anything like that,
but how do you charge for your services? It is a retainer type of thing or is
it based on‐ I guess just tell us how you ﬁgure your structure.
Greg: Well, sure. Really all we have is Fme. That is what we do. We look at
the Fme we are going to be involved with the property. There is a lot of
risk. We will possible hire fence people, roof people, on up to full‐blown
total renovaFon of a property so we know that there would be a cost to
complete if that is required. We also look at our Fme and eﬀort that we
are going to put into the property and sort of give them an idea of budget.
GeDng a retainer is a really good idea and I would not have said that a
year ago or two years ago, but what happens is that we get to an
assignment and like some people have said to me, Greg it is like the cavalry
has come. You can imagine the property siDng foul for a year or two and
all of a sudden, zip, zip, trucks, fences, ladders, all sorts of things
happening on a property. And they go my god, it is like overnight this thing
is going crazy and they are usually‐ the neighbors are really happy to see
some acFvity on a property and then we have found that if we do not get a
retainer, in some cases we are not geDng paid for 120 or more days later.
So I have all the risk. I have all this money going out and you would think a
bank could cut you a check for what you are doing to cover their risk and it
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turns out‐. This is a heads‐up for anybody doing this is how are you going
to get paid and is it going to be on a Fmely basis? Because watch this. Let
us say I have one property where a boat sank oﬀ in a canal right in front of
the property. It was Fed up to the dock. Who are they going to call? They
are going to call the court‐appointed receiver. What is my liability? Well,
that boat that someone arbitrarily decided to hook to this dock could be
up to ten thousand dollars a day for environmental issues. I am looking at a
lot of liability and for the bank not to take care of me because I am taking
care of them is rather odd, but you really need to ﬁgure out‐. And you
could be in front of a senior vice‐president and he is engaging you to be a
receiver but he has several layers above him that are dealing with a lot of
problems and issues and controlling the purse strings where you think you
are dealing with the guy that can authorize a check. In this case, all bets
are oﬀ. It is 2009‐2010 now, new deal. He cannot cut the check so you
need assurances you are going to get paid.
Brecht: Wow. So you menFoned a senior vice‐president. Let me just ask
you a li>le bit about that. First oﬀ, what types of lenders or banks are you
working with mostly? Are they local or naFonal? Kind of give me the
Greg: Locally, we probably work with three lenders that everyone is
familiar with in the Orlando area. We are working with a few large regional
banks and a lot of our stuﬀ has to do with private banking. Private banking
is where it is not a convenFonal loan. Private money, if you will, is put up
to do a project so it is a higher interest rate and usually higher risk. So
what is going to be a problem child in a market like this would be the
private banking. And quite honestly, they are more interesFng. They are
not a 7‐11 coming out of the ground. They are a mulF‐family with a
renovaFon component and a this and a that. We do a lot of workouts in
the private banking arena day in and day out. But it is probably about 80%
private banking and then 20% just convenFonal either local or regional
Brecht: Okay. So what is a typical Ftle for somebody who is your decision‐
making contact at a local or regional bank?
Greg: Special assets servicer, that sort of thing. Usually it is a special asset
manager is the guy you want to talk to, is the guy or gal that you want to
get in front of. what I have found is and it is interesFng is that there could
be four people in an oﬃce and a special asset management oﬃce and they
are just geDng deluged with ﬁles and boxes of ﬁles and they do not even
know how to come up for air and they do need help. They have not
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acknowledged in some cases or have go>en the authorizaFon to get the
help, but they are the one you want to make the relaFonship with.
Brecht: So would you say that there is a parFcular asset type that is your
focus or your specialty?
Greg: Well, you know, there clearly is and it is really someFmes the most
diﬃcult and that is mulF‐family. Through my enFre career, you would like
to think that you are going to move on to diﬀerent asset types but I have
worked on banks. I have worked on a lot of car dealerships. I have done a
lot of hotels, but year in and year out, the mulFtudes of mulF‐family work
that we do is just incredible and up to and including this one project that
we did which was a poraolio worth 1.2 billion. And it was basically 297
diﬀerent apartment communiFes between Orlando to Michigan and it is
hard to not drive down the street and run into one of that poraolio. It is
mulF‐family, mulF‐family, mulF‐family and then like this week I worked on
an aircrac hangar and all of a sudden you are working on retail building
and then back to mulF‐family. It is predominantly apartments. People have
to live somewhere.
Brecht: So what do you see as the biggest challenge facing I guess two
groups? One is the mulF‐family investor and second would be lenders on
mulF‐families. What are they facing today?
Greg: Well, there was a great arFcle. I am not sure if you saw it. We have
the Orlando Business Journal here in Orlando that is predominantly
focused on commercial real estate and then you look around and you look
at the various other ones and there is a Nashville Business Journal that
came out yesterday with a great arFcle by Eric Snyder and the heading is
'Analysts tell developers to play golf in 2010.' Now that kind of says it all. I
mean‐ and you would laugh but I know people who are literally doing that
where they have had a great experience mode. They should be geDng
money but there is no money out there from convenFonal lending so
people are literally packing up and coming to Florida for extended long‐
term winter to spring vacaFons and I know that for a fact. I am siDng right
here. So what is happening is there is no money out there whatsoever to
do anything except for mulF‐family, Fannie, Freddie, FHA, HUD‐type
situaFons and that is the only money out there period. If you are focusing
on developing, the only thing you can do is mulF‐family. You cannot buy
retail. You cannot buy a car dealership unless you have money. That is what
is ironic about this situaFon. If you have cash, you can buy a property for
50%, 40% of the actual cost of duplicaFng that property. I mean there are
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huge opportuniFes out there. I would encourage anyone who has cash to
get into the market and you have a lot of power.
Brecht: What would you say to the banks special assets groups who are
siDng here looking at defaulFng mulF‐families? Is there stuﬀ in their
poraolio now or ‐‐?
Greg: I can tell you there is a property right down the street, 480 units. It
was like a B‐property, if you will. It had 32 oﬀers. That was in October.
Thirty‐two oﬀers, so you are talking about a thirty million dollar project
and it had 32 oﬀers. Call it 22 legiFmate oﬀers. There is a lot of demand
out there for people to buy mulF‐family so if you have one that is
somehow‐ . I have been to projects in the last four weeks that have had
62% occupancy in apartment complex. That is not going to work. You are
not going to cut it. So there are opportuniFes there to turn around an
asset like that by geDng good markeFng, good property management, get
that thing up to where it can show some revenue, and then you deﬁnitely
could market that and there is an appeFte out there for ground up and
there is an appeFte there for purchasing exisFng, operaFng mulF‐family
Brecht: Move fast, get the property into saleable condiFon, and then
listen to the market it sounds like.
Greg: Absolutely. There is a lot of analysis that goes into that. This
parFcular locaFon we are talking about is a really interesFng sub‐market.
There is a school nearby that is in a huge growth mode. You look at each
one individually and if you are looking at any property for long, however
you are going to get the money, the key thing right now is revenue. What is
the revenue being thrown oﬀ by that property? What are your expenses?
What is the income? Can you pay the loan? People, like I said, they need to
live somewhere and there are some areas that are really tough to ﬁll
apartment complex, but there are a lot of great ones too. There is clearly
opportunity out there.
Brecht: So, if you could just use your crystal ball and tell us what you see,
12 or 24 months from now, or if not then, when do you see a return to
posiFve movement. Just tell us what you see.
Greg: We are in posiFve movement right now. Let us look at the
residenFal side. We have a lot more acFvity this year than last year. We
have a residenFal component within our ﬁrm and we have seen 30%
increase in volume this year than last year. So you kind of look at the
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residenFal market and say what is going to happen to the commercial
market? It is going to do the exact same thing. We are going to see in 2010
a lot more pressure from FDIC for lenders to dump property. There is a
huge amount of equity on the sidelines that is going to come in and sweep
some of this stuﬀ up, because they understand that the opportunity is
now. So we are going to have some bank failures next year. We are going to
have a lot of consolidaFon. We are going to have a real great headline,
breaking news about this, that, and the other thing that are great to sell
papers as far as failures. And then we are going to come out the other side
and I would say that in probably 24 months we are going to be ramping up
and it will be pre>y much back to normal. Right now everybody is really
confused as to what our administraFon is going to do with taxes with
anything, with small business. And what I see and what I saw is that
everyone in the lending area and development area was frozen for several
months or maybe even a year where they could not do anything because
they really did not know where anything was going acer that ﬁnancial
collapse. Now we are seeing clearly and I pet it at November 2009, we
started to see a turnaround where everyone is more accepFng of the
market, more accepFng of the situaFon, and we have to move on. That
demands for businesses such as medical, medical supply, medical labs,
things that are not moving along they are purchasing buildings. They are
starFng to invest and it is going to go through industry sectors to get back
to where we are all comfortable again and you have to remember‐. That is
one thing I can tell from my experiences is that when you are in the good
Fmes, you ﬁgure they are never going to end. When you are in the bad
Fmes like we are in right now, you never see that there is going to be any
light at the end of this tunnel. Trust me. It is going to turn around. And it
always does and that is one of the greatest things about the U.S. of A. is
that this is a capital, economy. We are driven to pursue, to expand, to
innovate and if we lose that, it is a sad thing, but I do not see that. I think
we are going to be ﬁne in 24 to 28 months.
Brecht: Well yeah. I like that forecast. Who are you looking to work with or
network with out there? Who would you like to hear from or who could be
hearing from you?
Greg: We do really well with people who get it. They are lenders who see
opportunity and take care of their properFes and improving their assets or
stabilizing them. People who want creaFve decisions and direcFon and if
they want us to grab hold of a property and steer it in the right direcFon. It
would be special asset managers. It would be developers that are having a
li>le bit of a problem with the property. We are problem solvers. We are a
li>le bouFque ﬁrm, but we have huge resources. Anyone that can do 298
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apartment complexes in two months for purchase can certainly get their
hands around whatever you throw at us and we have had well over a
decade of experience doing it. I just went to Mobile, Alabama to see a
developer and he needs money. He needs equity for a really sweet,
fantasFc projects which are mulF‐family, HUD‐backed, private lender. Wells
Fargo is ready to do the construcFon ﬁnancing, ready to do the permanent
ﬁnancing, rates lined up to buy this sort of stuﬀ. He just needs an infusion
of equity. We are kind of stepping outside of our box here and looking at
opportuniFes like that to help people out to get through this. We need
more people that are really interesFng, challenging. We do really well with
tough clients, but‐
Brecht: Plenty of that out there today.
Greg: Right. Anybody who is really interested in solving a problem, they
should call us and we will come up with some soluFons.
Brecht: All right. Thanks so much for being on the call today. Anybody with
a ton of problems, ha‐ha, call Greg Tro>er of Commercial Building
Consultants based in Orlando, Florida. It was really great having you here. I
hope that we answered a lot of quesFons for folks who were wondering
what is receivership and what do I do next and look forward to some more
of this and look forward to talking to you again, Greg.
Greg: I appreciate it and I enjoyed talking to you. Our phone number here
in Orlando is 407‐447‐5881 and you can go to our website
Brecht: Okay, awesome. Thank you Greg.
Greg: Have a great day.
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