Aromar Revi is the director of the Indian Institute for Human Settlements (IIHS), an independent research institution addressing India's urban growth challenges. The IIHS aims to create a new curriculum focused on "urban practice" to train professionals for India's rapidly urbanizing future. Revi discusses the IIHS's efforts to reimagine education away from outdated theories towards knowledge relevant to practitioners and cities in 2030. The IIHS conducted an extensive review finding most urban education worldwide is 10-20 years behind practice. It is working to connect innovators across India to collaboratively solve challenges and opportunities as half of India's population will be urban by mid-century.

1. Aromar Revi
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2. CONVERSATION
Teaching
for
Tomorrow
The Indian Institute for Human Settlements is an independent,
privately funded, globally ranked education and action-oriented
research institution created by a number of India’s leading
entrepreneurs, professionals and thought leaders to address the
multi-dimensional and inter-disciplinary challenge of the country’s
urban growth. Edgar Pieterse speaks to Aromar Revi, the institute’s
future-orientated director, about his revolutionary approach to
curriculum and imagining what is possible.
CITYSCAPES | 57

3. I
conversation
that of a problem into an opportunity,
and I think that has happened over
the last ten-odd years or so. Many of
us have been involved for a quarter
century in trying to address this
challenge, but we’re just starting to
pick up a new momentum. It provides
us with a tremendous opportunity
of a new trajectory of development,
a new way of life, and addressing
many challenges—from the lack of
water and power to sustainability.
But centrally, it is an opportunity for
social transformation.
India’s urban population is expected to This is something that some of the
increase from a little over 375-million in leaders of India’s Freedom movement
2011 to about 800-million by the middle from nearly 60 years ago saw—that
of the 21st century. At this future point, cities were an opportunity to address
urban India will account for more than questions of social transformation.
half of the country’s population. Nearly If cities are going to provide t
two-thirds of India’s economic output opportunities for this transformation,
already comes from urban areas. then the question is: How can
The challenge of equipping the country you help educate and train a new
Aromar Revi (b. 1961, India) is an international to deal with this pervasive urban future generation of change-makers? Things
practitioner, consultant, researcher and educator with has been taken up by an ambitious
significant inter-disciplinary experience in public
are happening at such a quick pace,
policy and governance, the political economy of
independent research institution and and at such a large scale, giving us the
reform, development, technology, sustainability and prospective national university for opportunity to create the environment
human settlements. Currently director of the Indian innovation, the Indian Institute for to make transformational change
Institute for Human Settlements, he has been a senior Human Settlements. Headed up by happen. But we’re really short on
advisor to various Indian governmental ministries, Aromar Revi, this fledgling institute
consulted with a wide range of UN, multilateral,
time. It takes a decade or two to
bilateral development and private sector institutions
aims to create a new profession and build a new educational regime—that
and works on economic, environmental and social new discipline focused on “urban means a couple of hundred million
change at global, regional and urban scales. He practice” to address the needs of working new urban residents. To be honest, we
has led over 100 major research, consulting and professionals and younger learners, should have done what we are doing
implementation assignments in India and abroad. A practitioners and researchers.
fellow of the India China Institute at the New School
now over 15 years ago, when India’s
University, New York, he has written and edited economic reforms were just taking
five books. He is also one of South Asia’s leading Edgar Pieterse: From the vantage root.
disaster mitigation and management experts and point of the African Centre for Cities, EP: Do politicians and policy makers
has led emergency teams to assess, plan and execute and the community of scholars grasp or understand the need for
recovery and rehabilitation programmes for ten major and practitioners in Africa who
earthquake, cyclone, surge and flood events affecting
higher education and training?
over five million people.
are all beginning to wake up to the AR: They are starting to understand
magnitude and implications of the that now. A recent report talked
Edgar Pieterse (b. 1968, Cape Town) is an urban urban transition in Africa, we’ve about the need to do this at scale,
scholar, writer and creative agent whose interests really been inspired by the scale to train not only ‘leaders’, but also
include the theory and practice of policy discourses and ambition of your work. By
and interventions to make the African city more
a wider range of people. Part of this
just, open and accessible. He holds the South African
what it means in the Asian context, discourse comes from the fact that we
Research Chair in Urban Policy at the University of and specifically in the South Asian are imagining what it is possible in
Cape Town and is director of the African Centre for context, but also because you haven’t the future, with the recognition that
Cities. Formerly a special policy advisor to the premier been overwhelmed by the scale of constraints today are less resources
of the Western Cape, he is the author of City Futures: it. Can you give us some background
Confronting the Crisis of Urban Development
and technology but people and
(2008). He has also co-edited numerous volumes,
as to how you stumbled into this institutions. It’s a contradiction in
including Counter-Currents: Experiments field, and how come you’ve ended terms: in a region that has almost
in Sustainability in the Cape Town Region up leading a systematic educational 1.5-billion people, the constraint
(2010), Consolidating Developmental response to the organisation being appropriately educated and
Local Government (2008) and Voices of the question? It is probably the largest
Transition: The Politics, Poetics and Practices
trained people. But that’s because
of Development in South Africa (2004). He is
experiment of its kind in the world? of the way our higher educational
co-editor of the ongoing The African Cities Reader Aromar Revi: The big challenge has system has developed or degraded
(2010) series. been to transform the discourse from over the last two decades.
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4. conversation
EP: I’d like to hear more about how only come from political leadership. few reflections on what that process
you’re biting into this challenge, A new generation of change-makers revealed for you, and how that has
and what the pragmatic approach to would need to have new technical informed your thinking?
this is. But, if I can, I want to reflect competencies and the ability to go AR: It’s actually been very interesting
what you’re saying onto the African and actually muck around and work for us, because we started with the
context. Our reality is that we have in cities. They may well become hypothesis that from our experience
both the human challenge, on the future political leaders. much of what we were teaching was
one hand, and then the financing EP: This has been our central learning less relevant—and then we went out
and institutional challenge as from the last two years of building up to prove it, formally. We reviewed
well. Obviously one can’t equate the ACC: the moment is absolutely programmes from across the world,
Africa with India. We’re not seeing ripe, if not overripe. What’s been from maybe 60 odd universities,
the same levels of growth. There instructive for us as we’ve gone about 2,000 courses or so. What we found
are about a dozen countries with trying to imagine what a curriculum was startling. The first thing was
resource portfolios on the continent could look like, one that could that even at the best places in the
that are achieving growth, but then really equip these practitioners, is world, the theory was lagging, even
there’s still another 40 countries the realisation just how redundant innovative practice—it was anywhere
left. I’m trying to think about what a lot of ‘world class knowledge’ between ten to 20 years behind. And
the implications could be for how and ‘best practice’ is in our context, we were able to test that, because we
we should be thinking about this especially in a situation where the had people involved in the process
challenge in the African context. current pressures are so extreme and that could speak to that question, in
I’m curious whether you have some unprecedented. Of course, in your India, in Europe, the United States
thoughts on that too? case, you’ve actually gone out and and China.
you’ve reviewed what the best in the The second thing, of course, which
world has to offer, Can you share a we knew beforehand, was that what
“ big challenge has
The URBAN SETTLEMENT GROWTH IN INDIA: 1951
been to transform the
discourse from that
of a problem into an
opportunity.
”
AR: I’m not an African specialist but
I think a critical opportunity would
be a pan-African response, linking
up between experiences, ideas and
people across different contexts. If
you’re able to do that and not become
completely constrained by national
boundaries, or particular ethnicities,
that would be a significant beginning.
I think what you are trying to do
here, with the ACC, for example,
is a very important step in that
direction—educating a cadre of people
who can think in wider and deeper
terms. If I look back, there was a
whole generation of people from a
particular university in the Eastern
Cape [University of Fort Hare] who
transformed this part of Africa.
Contemporary challenges are no < 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION
less, except that responses may not
CITYSCAPES | 59

5. conversation
at the Indian Institute for Human
URBAN SETTLEMENT GROWTH IN INDIA: 1971 Settlements (IIHS).
EP: I’m curious about that
revolutionary approach to thinking
about curriculum. What has the
response been amongst India’s
established system of academics,
those people who currently transact
and produce urban planners? What
and how are you managing those
potential tensions?
AR: It’s a mix of things. At the
moment we’re going through a
process of educational sector reform.
At the top end of the system, there’s
KOLKATA a degree of openness—there is
(6.9)
MUMBAI consensus that we need a dramatic
(5.8)
change in our higher education
system, if India is to make many of
the transitions we talked about. We
are teaching stuff that is 30 or 40
years old.
You cannot build a knowledge
economy around this. For a service
sector-led economy this could
have dramatic impact. There are a
number of dramatic new educational
initiatives, like the IIHS, India’s first
prospective National University for
Innovation that focuses on its urban
transformation.
< 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION But that is at the macro level.
Practitioners are desperately
looking for this opportunity and
we are typically teaching in India is we have such tremendous people
about 20 years behind what is already innovating across the country.
redundant elsewhere. So we were From the practitioner’s side, there’s
effectively transacting ‘knowledge’ a great deal of engagement with
that was 40 years out of date, which the IIHS because we’re an open
had nothing to do with the reality institution where there’s little of
that people are experiencing today. the traditional hierarchy between
How can we move teaching and academics—the ‘experts’ if you will—
learning out of that trap? The and practitioners. It leads to a good
challenge was to reconstruct synergy between these cultures.
knowledge that would be relevant In terms of people who are in
for today, knowledge that would academic roles at the moment, there
be important for practitioners and is the excitement of a new openness
policymakers. We asked one basic to a dialogue around problem
question: What will be relevant in solving and knowledge creation from
2030 for the young people today who below that cuts through traditional
have the potential to transform the barriers. I was teaching one of our
system? We’re therefore teaching for interdisciplinary programmes a
tomorrow, not only for today. There’s couple of months ago, and many
almost a three-generation difference people came up and said, ‘This is
between what’s being taught and fantastic, this is what we started to
what needs to be engaged in—that’s do 30 years ago, but we lost ourselves
been a very interesting shift that we in a maze of bureaucracy. It’s nice
have started to make progress on to know that you’re trying to make
58 | CITYSCAPES

6. conversation
“ a contradiction in a change in such a measured and
systematic way. Can we come and
help you?’
that you (the IIHS) deliberately and
consciously opened yourselves up
both to the north and the south?
It’s EP: The one thing I really want to AR: Absolutely, we’re at an age in
terms: in a region that probe, and that I think is potentially which openness to all geographies
has almost 1.5-billion really important for the larger is important. We traditionally had a
people, the constraint community to understand, is if you colonial and northern engagement,
design a curriculum and if you’re but our orientation has slowly
being appropriately trying to prepare practitioners for shifted. The real innovation is
educated and trained the future that is in 20 or 30 years actually happening in the southern
people. But that’s time how do you go about that? hemisphere. Whether it’s Brazil,
because of the way How do you source the new kind of Mexico or Colombia, various parts of
knowledge that’s required? Maybe Africa, South Africa—that’s where the
our higher educational just a few thoughts on how you’ve real experimentation is happening.
system has developed or practically engaged with that kind of People in our cites and parts of the
degraded over the last work? world have to innovate just to survive,
two decades. AR: There are two realities. One it’s very simple. The challenge is of
reality is that most of today’s aggregation of this innovation, to be
”
solutions are linked with today’s able to engage and adapt and co-
crisis and tomorrow’s opportunities. create at a cross-country scale.
There are tens of thousands of EP: It seems to me that there is a new
innovative responses taking form paradigm in the making. So all of the
across our cities and towns. The biology with it is between university
question is how to connect those and society, or between the state, the
processes and innovators with other private sector and society, between
actors and systems—you have to qualified academic knowledge
reach out and connect them in ways and practitioner knowledge. You’re
that have been rarely explored before, collapsing all of these boundaries, but
except maybe by movements and still there is a method to the madness,
markets. in a sense.
EP: It’s how one taps the energy at AR: Yes.
the bottom. EP: And, it seems to me that this idea
AR: Absolutely. We want to try and of experimentation and innovation
bridge the asymmetry of language, is a very powerful notion to unpack,
and hence the asymmetry of power because what we’re grappling with in
and hierarchy. The bulk of expert our case is how to animate a capacity
knowledge is embedded in control to be rigorous and systematic in
of advanced technical systems. As understanding the obstacles to
soon as you’re able to bridge that, in structural change, but at the same
a somewhat more effective manner, time imbue people with a capacity to
that has the benefit of joining be passionate about driving change.
markets. The reality is that we have The structural reading of the problem
to be completely open to different often leads to a kind of paralysis,
worlds. in part because the programmatic
Latin America does great things in expressions that have been tied to
their cities, which we don’t do very that have often run aground. There’s
well. If one reflects with them on been this endless splintering off of
their experiences, we’re in a sense various efforts and collectives.
experiencing our future today. So, there seems to me to be
Similarly with China and various something really profound at the core
parts of Africa, including Southern of what you do. It presents the seeds
Africa. A key question for us when we for a much larger re-theorisation
examine trans-national experiences of structural change. It is about
is if this is the place that we want to how to invent new institutions,
go to. And, what can we learn from new categories, new concepts, new
this process? classes of things, and, of course,
EP: What’s been striking for me figure out how they network together
being part of this experiment is and intersect. Is there a mechanism
CITYSCAPES | 61

7. conversation
“ of today’s within this methodology you’re
adopting to build up the institution
and embed it in society? In other
concerned—traditional challenges like
water, sanitation and housing, but
also strategy and municipal finance.
Most words, is this just about delivering We’re simultaneously testing the
solutions are basically the vehicle to produce new people, integrated Masters in Urban Practice
linked with today’s or are you also thinking about it, curriculum.
crisis and tomorrow’s and building out the capacities to EP: Why don’t we go straight to some
actually document and capture these of your thinking around the emergent
opportunities. processes so that you can begin the south-south dialogue? In what way is
process of re-theorising from these this south-south articulation different
” experiences?
AR: I guess it’s all three of those
things, but probably more of the first
to earlier efforts at tri-continentalism,
non-lateralism and so forth?
AR: Well, I think the world is
one. In a sense, we build the vehicle, changing quite quickly, and the
and the vehicle has to be viable and new south-south dialogue is
sustainable, physically, financially, different from the 1970s and 80s,
institutionally and so on. We’ve because global geopolitics and the
tried to be reflective as far as that is global economy has changed quite
concerned. dramatically.
We’re also attempting to be flexible. A big shift is the rise of China and
History will only tell whether we a change in perspective from 20th
have been adaptable enough, but century imperialism and its model
mostly what we are trying to do is of hard boundaries. The Chinese
reflect as much as we can. view of the world is not based on
Our team currently is fairly small; classical western political theory.
reflection does require redundancy Its perspective is less within the
in terms of time and effort, which is Westphalian frame but much more
difficult in early stage institutional civilizational—soft boundaries, zones
development. of influence; a dynamic view of
EP: I can see the point of really cultures and spatial and temporal
building effective change agents, relationships between each other.
but if those agents are restricted to a So, the shift from an Atlantic to a
particular class and cultural category, Pacific-centric world-system which
there’s a problem? partitioned Africa into planes and
AR: There’s this absolutely huge straight lines—to a much more
challenge of class capture, or capture nuanced kind of engagement.
by a particular interest group. We It is not as if the United States
come from a terrain in which will wither away as a great power.
educational institutional capture is Its asymmetry as far as hard and
the hobby of most political parties possibly economic power is going to
and interest groups. What we will persist for a significant time. Early
try to do to counter that is to reach as 21st century south-south engagement
deep as we can across the country, needs to be seen in that context.
into pockets of ‘disadvantage’ or those A range of engagements that
advantaged with life experiences are building and how they will
of struggle. Our success will be coalesce and work themselves out
dependent on actually reaching out. is still unclear. If you look at the old
EP: Can you give some sense of what dependency theories, Brazil, South
kind of timeframe you are working Africa and India are somewhere in
with? When do you start with your the ‘semi-periphery’.
first intake of students? EP: What do you see as the main
AR: We’re hopeful of initiating our difference between China and India’s
master’s programme next year. This particular conception of itself and
year, we’ve already started teaching approach to this kind of journey?
a whole range of professionals and Because, presumably that will be
students, via more than a dozen a fairly key variable in how this
short courses that span quite a unfolds.
range of questions as far as cities are
62 | CITYSCAPES

8. conversation
AR: To some extent India is still fairly regional socio-cultural diversity an understanding that in order to
messed up. We don’t really have a simultaneously. I guess that was part enable trade and physical movement
very clear sense, geopolitically, of of the project that was imagined, but of goods and services, you need to
where we are and where we may seems a long distance away for many establish infrastructures that allow
be going. We’re still moving out of parts of Southern Africa, at least. movement back and forth as part
the phase of looking at the rest of EP: It is interesting that in the last of the project. But I think the real
South Asia as a ‘significant other’, while, this has probably been the most challenge is the movement of people.
to looking at other kinds of regional important Achilles heel of the African One big part of this intellectual
and continental relationships. We’re Project, making the regional economic south-south project is trying to
still in our middle adolescence, so to blocks work. To even think beyond reconceptualise that. Sub-Saharan
speak. China has a much longer view that has been quite a challenge. But Africa is one place that could be
of history. It is much more organised I think the penny is starting to drop, tested and have the most significant
and a much older nation state, which both in terms of the cost implications, dividend, because of the history of
is difficult to compete with if you the infrastructure investments that how territory was defined leading
are primarily a soft power However, need to happen, and also the need to to genocide at the one end, and
India’s resilience is something that coordinate in a much more efficient suboptimal economic outcomes and
may come into play as things become way across these geographies. development outcomes at the other
rather tough. AR: There is greater acceptance end.
So, whether it’s the firms or it is civil now that, in some ways, there are EP: What is interesting is how the
society, or it is individuals there’s a no effective barriers to the flow of kind of partial engagement of China,
lot more flux and suppleness in India, capital and finance. Setting up a and to some extent India and other
partially because the idea of India is global system to manage that is one Asian states wishing to access
a relatively new one. South Asia has of the most significant challenges particular resources, is undermining
typically absorbed and integrated in the international order. There is that to some extent.
influences that have come to it
from across the world. The ability to
absorb external forces and transform
them is a particular strength. I think URBAN SETTLEMENT GROWTH IN INDIA: 1991
it is going to be a really important
capacity as we move into a more
fractured future. The fact also that
we have, for better or for worse, a DEHLI
functioning democracy at the scale of (8.2)
a billion plus that has held together
for 65 years is really important.
If I think historically, when the
United Nations was founded in
1945 it comprised 50 countries. A
decade later it doubled, because of
decolonization and the retreat of
western imperialism. And so the
number kept growing. By the fall of KOLKATA
the Berlin Wall in 1989, it numbered MUMBAI (10.9)
(12.3)
170 countries. I think the UN is about
190 now. So there has been a trend
of the creation of new nation states
and the breakdown of some large
agglomerations, especially the Soviet
CHENNAI
Union. (5.3)
But there are also large pockets of
experimentation around nation-state
consolidation, of which the largest
is the European Union. One of the
fundamental challenges there, of
course, is how do you assemble a
multi-poplar, multi-cultural system
of scale, which is able to bring < 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION
together the economy, politics and
CITYSCAPES | 63

9. conversation
“ Renaissance was a
AR: Yes, absolutely. this? The socio-cultural environment
EP: So, it seems until we get a is so different. Technology can play
stronger cohort of forward-looking a very different role. Innovation is
‘The leaders across the continent, it’s happening all over the place. Is there
good idea but maybe not going to be quite an uphill battle for a way of trying to aggregate and focus
in our part of the world.’ Africa, going forward. this innovation and by doing that,
AR: Absolutely. I think the core of transform the greater tradition itself?
”
that is the political imagination EP: How do you translate this intent
of what is possible with one’s into practice, particularly in terms
resources, and the fact that Africa as of the institutional design of IIHS?
a continent, and particular parts of Presumably, at a very concrete
Africa are where the future is going to level, the qualifications to access
unfold. That realisation has probably higher education will present a very
not struck home so clearly. It is practical barrier to entry.
because it hasn’t struck home that AR: Well, the opportunity of scaling
accommodations are possible, and before us is quite substantial. India is
alliances around interests are not so starting to universalise its elementary
clearly organised. education and close to. 90 per cent or
EP: I want to move in theme, Aro, to more of our young people up to grade
this question around the relationship eight go to some form of school. In
between academic research, advisory another five years, that will probably
services and practice. Since this is be extended to secondary school. So
something that’s fairly fundamental there are going to be a large number
to the design of IIHS, could you of people who will come out of
share some reflections on that? Is secondary school who will be looking
there really a virtual circle, or are for a university education. This large
we actually potentially setting up pool of people really presents an
something that could undermine opportunity for the IIHS and India.
the quality of scholarship or dilute The challenge is to move from an
the strategic focus of advisory work? elitist view of knowledge creation to
What are your views on this, and a more inclusive one. We are saying
why have you decided to make it so something a little different from
central in the design of the institute? top-of-the pyramid institutions:
AR: It’s a tricky question. If you ‘Innovation is actually happening at
look at it within a conventional tremendous scale at the middle of the
institutional development frame, it’s system. The elites are useful but not
a significant risk, partially because as effective or efficient as in a pre-
there are bringing together people networked society.’
who often think quite differently. In a society that’s highly
You’re setting yourself for a battle concentrated, both geographic and
between those cultures and possibly temporarily, economies of scale
setting yourself up to fail. But we are tend to dominate. But as you expand
looking at a larger project. using network-based systems, that
An older colleague paraphrased it becomes less important. Moving to
by saying, ‘The Renaissance was the middle of that system is really
a good idea but maybe not in our the place to go in terms of social
part of the world.’ We don’t need to transformation a fundamental
reproduce the social organisation of IIHS agenda. Our secondary
western Atlantic institutions, which aims are economic and political
came out of a particular tradition and transformation.
history starting from the collapse of We’re trying to build a highly
the Roman Empire through the Black inclusive institution that values
Death to the Renaissance. One of the people’s life experience, both
legacies of that development is the in terms of the curriculum and
separation of practice and theory. We the learner engagement. What
have somewhat different histories. might normally have counted as a
One of the questions we are asking is disadvantage may actually becomes a
how the 21st century will reconfigure significant advantage. We are looking
64 | CITYSCAPES

10. INTERVIEW
Edgar Pieterse
CITYSCAPES || 00
CITYSCAPES 65

11. conversation
for people who can learn fast and practice that can really engage
learn effectively. We want to enable with the problems of clients? So, if
other people to learn, because in a possible, some thoughts on that.
world that’s changing so quickly, And then related to that. What is very
the ability to learn is really a huge clear is that in the global structure
comparative advantage. People from of the production of knowledge,
an elite tradition of knowledge may 95 per cent, if not more, of what is
not be the best people to actually take considered valid knowledge—work
the processes forward. published in journals and books—still
EP: Yes, thanks for that, you’ve emanates from northern universities.
usefully explained the importance Clearly if one is going to shift that,
of the access aspect. But on the it’s going to be important that
other end of it, once you have your institutions like yours publish. There
structures in place, your academics is certainly a school of thought that
or your faculty, will these people we encounter in our context, that
be expected to be able to go into an says, if you contaminate people with
environment where they provide getting too close to the messy realities
consultative or advisory services? of practice, it strips out the criticality
How do you retain your criticality and they’re not able to produce high
and autonomy while crafting a quality scholarship because they are
“ want to train at URBAN SETTLEMENT GROWTH IN INDIA: 2011
We
least 50,000 students
over the next 30 years,
which is the minimum DEHLI
(16.9)
we require to actually
transform our system.
” AHMEDABAD
KOLKATA
MUMBAI (15.5)
(20)
HYDERABAD
(6.7)
BANGALORE CHENNAI
(7.2) (7.5)
< 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION
< 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION
66 | CITYSCAPES

12. conversation
too immersed in the realities. AR: I’m not sure whether I’m a
The business of writing and very good example, but what an
scholarship requires a very important thing is to be open to
different kind of training. It is about
disposition and distance. You know “ multiple cultures from across the
world, and to accept that everybody
all these arguments, and I know that I imagine that the web, is both a learner and a teacher.
this has obviously featured in your Cultural engagement is a high form
design processes, but what are your
not the text web, but of exploration, something is deeply
thoughts on all these questions? the oral web is going to embedded within South Asia. You
AR: I think they are very valid be a really important really have to know or try to engage
arguments. It’s about distancing part of our own with yourself, your own cultures, and
yourself in the classical subject- other cultures in their own terms,
object orientation. You do have
cultural experience and not in colonial or post-colonial
to have a particular quality of scholarship. asymmetries or artificial dichotomies.
preparation to be a good researcher EP: Yes, I see. And, if you will,
and a good academic. The counter
question is this: Is it not also
important simultaneously to be able
” non-verbal or non-written texts
will be a key part of how IIHS will
transact, and how your pedagogy will
to be a good pedagogue, researcher transact?
and academic? We want to train at
least 50,000 students over the next
30 years, which is the minimum
we require to actually transform
our system. This is why we need a URBAN SETTLEMENT GROWTH IN INDIA: 2031
markedly good set of teachers.
While I agree with you that if you
are overly embedded in institutional
and other contestations, you may
lose your sense of criticality. The KANPUR
redefinition of rigorous subjectivity DEHLI (5.1)
(24.4)
even in the cutting edge sciences,
some areas of physics and certainly
in the life sciences, are changing this
very dramatically.
We have very old living traditions AHMEDABAD
of knowledge in India, much older (8.5)
than the beginnings of what we
know as western scholarship. It’s a
strongly ‘scientific’ tradition, of using
KOLKATA
subjectivity as a basis of criticality. (22.3)
If the philosophical underpinnings MUMBAI
(28.6)
of your knowledge system are
connected with the challenges of HYDERABAD
everyday life, there is no reason why (9.9)
your science should not actually
reflect that. The geography of science
actually changes. I imagine we will BANGALORE CHENNAI
(10.6) (11.1)
see a rather different way of doing
science, and hence a rather different
definition of what is acceptable as
good science.
EP: I want to turn to something a
little bit more personal. You straddle
these different domains, and you’ve
got a keen interest in the arts,
music and composition. How does
< 0.1 0.1-0.5 0.5-1 1-5 >5 MILLION
that translate into a south-south
institutional project?
CITYSCAPES | 67

13. conversation
“ fundamental AR: I think it’s an important point, around what we call a raga. Multiple
because one thing that we often musicians will come together, they
forget about in India is that we are know what composition of the raga
The largely an oral culture. I imagine that is, and they will create as they play—a
challenge is to enable the web, not the text web, but the oral new composition will never be
and draw out full human web is going to be a really important repeated again, both in time or space.
beings. That’s the core part of our own cultural experience So it’s a little bit like our biology, the
and scholarship. biology of the earth. No individual
of the process, if you EP: What do you mean, the oral web, in a species will be repeated again
don’t get that, then you I don’t understand? and we are all unique. Yet there is
haven’t got very much. AR: There are large numbers of continuity and great harmony in the
people who are not comfortable with music of life
”
text or don’t actually read it, but as EP: That’s very helpful, and a
processing of voice becomes much very nice metaphor also. One last
more ubiquitous, it becomes easy to question, and a shift in register: You
navigate around a knowledge system are offering a pilot course this year
by just speaking. You don’t have on the ‘world class city’. We were
to be ‘literate’ to have control over curious why you chose that theme,
knowledge. given how bankrupt this idea is that
EP: Interesting. Now, I raise this cities can be ‘world class’. It promotes
question because part of what we a kind of simplistic mimicry that
are trying to do with Cityscapes is reproduces political elites. Why did
to implant the idea that different you choose that theme?
registers of knowledge are equally AR: We chose that theme precisely
important. It’s important to facilitate because it is bankrupt, and also
a translation between these different because it tends to capture the
formats. In that articulation we will imagination of local and global
be able to build this new language elites. It followed in the wake of
of innovation that’s required to deal the Commonwealth Games, which
with the kind of really interesting were a little bit like the World Cup
phenomena that are emerging at in South Africa, a grand event which
present, but also to resolve some of was really the emperor’s new clothes
the challenges that we’re engaging in Imax 3D. So the course worked
with. Your thought? around that. We were building up
AR: I think it’s important, you’re from professional experience, and
reaching out to a very interesting using that as a means of trying to
space. I think the fundamental enable a critical reflection on the
thing that we’re all trying to do is to context in which we work.
explore a postcolonial, transmodern We were also trying to challenge
revisioning of humanism. The people to address some of
fundamental challenge is to enable the complex issues that these
and draw out full human beings. imaginations attempt to respond
That’s the core of the process, if you to, using a simulated teaching case
don’t get that, then you haven’t got to establish a new Global Financial
very much. Added to that is a need to centre that will create one million
integrate a whole range of different jobs with a capital investment of
ways of knowing. Like you just said, $15 billion. This is an impossible
Edgar, knowledge exists in multiple learning challenge to deal with, that
registers. If you want to create a our learners had three days to work
composition, you have to be able to on. They had to throw away all the
bring them altogether. baggage of prior experience and
In fact, a good example lies in the learn to work as an interdisciplinary
difference between Indian and problem solving team to address this
western classical music. The great challenge
western compositions are put
*
together; they’re written to a score.
Great Indian classical music is never
written to a score; they are built
68 | CITYSCAPES